Dispel

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ThePaws
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Dispel

Post by ThePaws » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:28 am

I think there needs to be some defense against dispel.

As it stands now, there exists a strategy to use only dispel and a few damage cards. That's it. Every class CAN use it, and it has effectively become the only stragedy from mid 40 to 70+ when you have enough card slots to shelve your damage cards.

It's fine that's a strategy, and kudos to whomever thought of it...But, the game is flat out broken/boring when that's the only strategy you can use. If there were some way to disrupt that card and combo, it would at least introduce a modicum of variety to those levels. Especially, considering that pvp is essentially the only way to level out of the bracket.

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I also think it would be a good idea to at least offer a payment form through Google for the players that can use it. I personally would make some purchases if it were a trusted source. I think I might not be the only one either so hopefully that would cover any development costs...

Motylek
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Re: Dispel

Post by Motylek » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:49 pm

Hello,

This kind of matter was quite thoroughly discussed in this topic - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=778

Dispel itself is defensive card and it is kind of nonsense to create defense against defense card. Putting any limitations on defensive card will lead to worse problems, where fast aggro will be out of control in even faster manner than it is now due to ineffectiveness of defensive cards. What might be issue is combo with Dispel (but definitely not Dispel itself) especially for Human Knight and Orc Warrior, because it deals also base damage in addition to "normal effects" common for all classes and while other classes have to use other cards to make combo useful for damaging opponent, those 2 mentioned melee classes need only combo itself in order to damage opponent.

Did you read previous discussion in above mentioned topic? My opinion is that Dispel is very fine as it is and Dispel combo issue will kind of solve itself at levels 80+.

Motylek

ThePaws
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Re: Dispel

Post by ThePaws » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:25 am

So I just read through that entire topic. And apologies for not being more clear about the combo being the much larger issue. There is literally nothing short of being really lucky to defend against it. 2 cards on you initial draw. Which is almost worse because then you'll play valuable cards that will actually get dispelled when it's not actively being defended against.

After reading your reply, I think it reinforces my point. It's a broken mechanic (its currently being used as an offensive combination) to cover up a broken mechanic. You said it yourself - it's due to defensive cards not being feasible.

In regards to the other topic...note how the topic quickly devolves into 'whom has the best dispel combo'? Again stated in your aforementioned reply.

I understand that it resolves itself at level 80 with skill training, however, to reach level 80 you are absolutely REQUIRED to use this strategy. So if you're not already level 80. Tough. Make your dispel deck and enjoy the boring grind against identical decks using the same boring strategy. The degeneration of the previous thread unequivocally confirms that.

If you don't see that as an issue, I'm not sure we see eye to eye.

So in short...Instead of dispel being the way it is, Im suggesting it be reworked to actually be defensive. I mean the combo could literally reduce opponents damage by 200 or something and it'd be better than it is now.

Further, notice how many decks are using this compared to the mythical Haunting Voices...which is almost entirely useless 80+ (as far as i can tell) and has calmness...Plus, btw, will probably get dispelled...Mythical vs Epic...Calmness vs none. How is that right?

Motylek
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Re: Dispel

Post by Motylek » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:57 am

So I guess we agree now, that "Dispel" is fine as it is and only problem you have is "Dispel combo", right? "Dispel" should be unchanged and kept as it is no matter what, because it is the most effective single card defense in the game and I am 100% sure, that defense should not be weakened. You seem to be still mixing terms of "Dispel" and "Dispel combo" together in your post.
Lets assume then that you agree that "Dispel" is fine, if not, please state your opinion on it clearly without substituting one term for other. ;-)

Dispel combo is not only absolutely required until player will get level 80, but also after that as well (80+), because it is the most effective defense and there are many very powerful offensive combos that make very "quick and short process" with players HP.

Where I agree with you, is that Dispel combo could be made purely defensive, without having offensive potential like doing damage. But I do not see it as "absolutely must be done" thing, but I really see your point. Well, what would you suggest then as a solution? Do you have ideas what to do?

Please do not mix Haunting Voices into this or it will mess theme and topic will stray away from its focus. If you think, that Haunting Voices have some issue, please discuss it in another topic or point out direct connection between Dispel combo and Haunting Voices. At least it would be wise to do it unless you want to have one discussion thread for all themes and topics in one place. :-)

Motylek

ThePaws
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Re: Dispel

Post by ThePaws » Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:18 pm

We kind of agree. Dispel can be left as is, but, I would make it mythical. Because your absolutely right, it is the most powerful ddefensive card in the game. I think that's an issue. I would rather see it be immunity so it's truly defensive instead of being used as an offensive strategy. Part of the reason defensive cards are not played is because of dispel.

I'm not mixing haunting voices in, but, merely using it to illustrate that the most powerful defensive card/combo in game aren't even of the mythical category. Plus, the card and combo are routinely used to negate mythic cards.

Motylek
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Re: Dispel

Post by Motylek » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:50 pm

I do not think, that Dispel should be mythical card. It would hurt its purpose to be available as defense. If it should become mythical card, it should be more powerful than it is now. If you look at mythical cards, they all have either more than 1 effect (at example deal damage and decrease opponents' defense in same time) or longer duration than 1 turn. Dispel has only 1 effect and is 1 turn duration and this makes it fundamentally different from all mythical cards currently existing in game.

I also disagree that Dispel and Dispel combo is routinely used to negate mythical cards. Definitely not. For that are routinely used duration decrease cards. Dispel and its combo is used against powerful combos (which do not necessarily contain mythical cards; at example special card combos), against heroic cards and their combos (especially Royal Blood and Orc Ferocity combos) and against total control cards/combos like strong cards boosted by duration increase card (that could be mythical card, but not necessarily; good example is 3 Honor Guidance cards). Then last special category is "preventive use" of Dispel combo to gain offense advantage and this category is probably the most discussed one (but is limited in effectivity at 80+ levels). At least this is my personal experience. Could be, that we have different PVP duel experience.

Motylek

ThePaws
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Re: Dispel

Post by ThePaws » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:57 am

You're wrong on all mythical cards having two effects. Haunting voices does not have two effects. It has one and a calmness effect. Further, all mythical cards have only higher effects of abilities on other cards, whereas dispel is the only card that has its effect. It makes perfect sense to be a mythical, in its Present form.

Our experiences I'm positive are vastly different. I've recently played about 25 matches at lvl 68. In 22 of them dispel or dispel combo were the first card played by opponents. I've gone on to win 1 of the remaining three matches without using dispel. Feel free to check in game, you'll see where a long string of losses occurs. That is not to break a strong combo as the strong combos youre referencing all have cards involving calmness. That is simply to prevent the other person from playing any duration cards and removing any mythical cards. If thats not offense, I'd be afraid what you to see what you call offense. My guess is that you may have already been leveled out of this bracket before this became the only tactic used there.

One of my biggest qualms with dispel, is that I can spend five turns setting up cards for defense mind you, combating duration decreases along the way, to have it entirely wiped out by dispel, or worse a combo in one turn...And, oh by the way, it's a combo so you're pretty much crippled after that - with half your deck gone. Maybe that's why defense cards are so worthless?

Either way, it sounds very eerily like your honestly arguing that this SHOLD be the only way to play the game through over 30 of the longest levels in the game? That is fundamentally wrong and what I want to see changed. I've given a couple examples that don't even nerf the defensive nature of the card, even buff it with regards as a defensive card, that would significantly vary the strategies employed at the aforementioned levels. It's the ability for it to be exploited as an offensive weapon that needs to be addressed. Quite frankly it's being used exponentially more than any of the combos you say it's designed to defend against.

Motylek
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Re: Dispel

Post by Motylek » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:06 am

I am sorry, but it is you who is wrong, because I clearly stated, that all mythical cards have EITHER more than 1 effect OR longer than 1 turn duration. There are mythical cards with only one effect (but with longer duration, Haunting Voices falls into this category) and there are also mythical cards with only one turn duration (but with more effects). And that is true for every mythical card in game as it is now. Please check my previous post for reference. Regarding effect of Dispel, there is special card combo for Human Rogue, which does exactly same effect like effect on Dispel plus additional effects. Reason why "collect all cards" effect is not on more cards is, that it would make game unbalanced, because it would get around "number of same cards in deck" limit and it would make such powerful effect too common, which is not good. But unique effect does not make successful qualification for mythical status. There are other cards in game, which also have unique effect and are not mythical. At example I mentioned in my previous post Honor Guidance. Its effect can be also simulated by some cards combo, exactly like in case with Dispel. Exactly same thing is true for Roar, which is again not mythical and is only single card with that effect, but can be simulated by combo of more cards. I can remember at least one more card with unique effect and non-mythical status, but there may be even more. But no need to name them all, I think, we can consider proven that unique effect alone is not successful qualification for mythical status.

In your duels, where Dispel was the first card played by your opponents, were they playing Dispel as single card or as combo? If they play it as single card, they are in my opinion wasting resources (unless they did it as one of 3 main plus 1 special cases, which I mentioned in my previous post), but never mind, various people have various strategies and also various strategies are applied at different levels. (Please note that if they played it to prevent strong card/combo being boosted by duration increasing card, it falls into 3rd main case, which I mentioned in my previous post and it is played not because opponents card is mythical, but because opponents strong card/combo is/will be boosted for longer duration. Deciding factor is long duration, not mythical status of opponents strong card. Without duration boost, decrease duration card is much more suitable response, as it will keep their own cards on table and harm only your cards.) If they played it as Dispel combo, they were doing it for offensive purpose, which I described in my previous post as special 4th category, which is in general the most discussed one.

"Entirely wiping out by Dispel" is purpose of Dispel being created. It is what Dispel was designed for and that effect (collect all cards) is very much needed one. Without Dispel, there would be less tactical options in game. It would evolve into "who is faster to assemble stronger combo". I am personally very happy, that there is Dispel present in game as it is, because it is needed and only thing, which I would do differently is Dispel combo to not have damage potential. Dispel combo should be really defensive.

Could you please make a summary of your examples? I may be wrong, but I noticed only your suggestion about making it mythical and some unclear ideas, where you said that you would not even mind if it would prevent 200 damage. Could you please make a clear summary like if you would be presenting idea for implementation to programmer?

Motylek

ThePaws
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Re: Dispel

Post by ThePaws » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:30 pm

So to summarize all your posts...No variety from levels 50-80 is okay with you? Playing without the dispel combo in your deck is a guaranteed loss for 30 levels. If its up to you, I hope you enjoy playing with the same players in game now, because no new players will advance past that crap.

Plain and simple I'm suggesting a rework to make the game more dynamic and more strategic and your only contribution is that everyone using virtually the same deck is better for the game. It's beyond asinine at this point.

Your whole argument about mythical duration is semantic. How about ignoring the fact that the card as is, is by your own admission the best defensive card in the game? And also the best offensive cards in the game. And one of the best combos in the game. Especially at until lvl 80 apparently. Where does that rank it in terms of mythical status? If it weren't why is it the only strategy being used for 50-80 pvp?

In my duels it depended on who went first and if they had the combo. Obviously I didn't know their entire hand, but, if I played a mythical in the opening turn, didn't matter if it was a combo or not dispel was played every other turn for 6 rounds. If I played my buff area reduction x2, dispel came out. So you literally cannot prevent them from using the combo (all future dispel combos cannot be stopped with only one buff reduction Card)

That's what makes it so frustrating.

I think the main point you're missing is that with dispel there is literally no other tactical options. you're getting hit with that combo matter what. You can survive it, but, what's the point because you can't survive the next one. And it's being chain casted. Literally the first 6 turns becomes a battle of dispel. So much so that when I went with no duration cards and sheer damage, I confused the heck out of this tactic. Of course that wasn't a winning strategy unless you're an orc and can burst Down a squishy class using it.

But, if they have enough hps to survive your lvl 20 combos, they'll win by just weathering the pitiful damage storm until you are out of cards. Any combo that does good burest damage usually requires a decent heroic or mythical duration or buff card. Which against this strategy may as well be a 1 duration.

1mb4k4
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Re: Dispel

Post by 1mb4k4 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:45 pm

A slight offtopic :)

@ThePaws
The next release (currently in beta) supports google payments. You can download it, please check this topic: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1158

Regards,

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