Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Discussions about the gameplay and critique regarding the current state of the game and it's features.

Moderator: Essence Team

Unireal
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 7:37 am
In-game user name: Unireal

Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by Unireal » Sat May 09, 2015 8:10 am

Greetings Essencework. You have a created a True TCG game and the strategy level, complexity is as much to Magic the Gathering but in contrast to it in it's gameplay.
I love it! Epic!

As a fan of yours, i would like to suggest so to improve some flaws in it.

Improvement and fair gameplay

1. Skill Training / Mentality
(Increases maximum of identical cards)

*Having more than the maximum of the same cards. There should be a restriction on this. Otherwise, the strategy of the game will be exposed. Everyone can go in with that same card for victory.
*This will be used to exploit the game. You don't need strategy and tactical play anymore. Same card, one card for the overpowered win.

2. Card deck size
If you allow the increase of the maximum identical cards. Players can go in with 8 unicorns or 8 hypersonic shot. The gameplay will be very linear and applies to the same strategy to win it.
If you want to have this mentality of skills then you should also apply a 'MINIMUM' deck size for those who house mythical cards or same identical mythical cards to it's maximum.
This is to control the drawing rates of getting the same mythical cards again and again for every turn.

Example: A player have a maximise the skill training 'Mentality'. He have the mythical cards; Unicorns x 8.
He goes in the game challenge with a collector deck of 10 cards 8 unicorns; Drawing rate per turn = 80%

*which means every turn per drawing maximum is 2 cards, you will definitely draw the cards with that deck size, currently no deck size restriction.
By not having deck size control. The game is flawed



*******Suggestions & Improvement**********

You can have many mythical cards for collection as you want, you can go on to possess it from 1-1000 if you have the gold. :P
NO PROBLEM.
But in the collectors deck it should have a maximum card control of the same identical cards. Maximum is 3, skill Mentality training you can go up to 8.
:(
Players will exploit this features by having 8 mythical cards and going in with 20 deck size.

a) 8 maximum identical cards? Not a problem if you implement the rules of Minimum deck size. This way, to control the drawing chances and to prevent players from using the same one overpowered cards to bully players.
Example: Per housing of same identical mythical cards or mythical cards in collector's deck. Increase the 'Minimum' deck size. From a minimum 60 to a minimum 80. The more mythical cards, the more deck minimum size is implement. This is to control the drawing rates of the same cards every turn :evil:

b) abolish the maximum identical cards. Currently is 3 - Fair.
Skill training increase to 8!!??
Same identical mythic increase rate including playing with other mythic. Your deck is full of mythic.
FULL mythic deck. GG. The game does not need strategy and tactics anymore. One class card to win the game. :cry:




With no bared minimum, players will look to exploit the game with a single cards for victory instead of playing strategically and tactically.
Please look into this for fair play and the reason why people love MTG / TCG is it's ever changing gameplay experience that is determine by your gameplay decision, tactical approach, strategic resources to win the game.

1mb4k4
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:26 am
In-game user name: 1mb4k4

Re: Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by 1mb4k4 » Sat May 09, 2015 9:50 am

I will paste the reply from my e-mail here so we could continue the discussion here.

I understand your concerns.
This skill is very hard and expensive to be trained at such high levels. Yes it is possible of course, but really hard.
On higher levels, heroes have hundreds of hp and lots of defense and regeneration, mythical cards themselves are not such a game changer above level 70 and 80 as between levels from 30 to 60.
The most damage is done with combos (and with hero's might and other skills) which are implemented with heroic cards. These cards are available to only one of each per player.
Then after level 99 the hero gets the relic cards which are far stronger than the mythical cards and again the player could have only one of each.
So yes, this skill will bring you lots victories and success but in the end it will not be game changing.

Regards,

Unireal
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 7:37 am
In-game user name: Unireal

Re: Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by Unireal » Sat May 09, 2015 2:19 pm

Hi there Developer,

you are fast and efficient and thanks for noting down my feedbacks. The reason I do so is because your game, BOE is really a gem. For decades, Magic the Gathering has dominated and really being a tactical & strategy TCG.
Nothing has really challenge MTG due to it's complexity and ever changing gameplay.

Until BOE surfaced, as a avid MTG player and I believe your guys do Magic as well. You guys have really created something which is up to a challenge to MTG.
The complexity in terms of combat phases and ever changing gameplay scenario has make you a mark to challenge MTG :P

I hope this feedback will have you developers to digest and think about striking the gameplay balance.

Well, I have only just started awhile ago, have not reach to that high level yet but after some discussion and in game challenges.
The mythical cards played without restriction is way too overpowered. It undermines those rare and epic combos.

Players will exploit this features by having 8 mythical cards and going in with 20 deck size.

I agree with you that the skill training is hard to reach but achievable. But because as a fan, we look forward to support you guys in buying the credits. By doing so, the skill training is really attainable and whoever have that skill training to play and maximise the IDENTICAL CARDS in the collector deck is way to overpowered. If I can go in with 8 mythical and playing with just 20deck size, it's a confirm mythical draw rate.

How about keeping the skill of 8 mythical but restricting the deck size minimum. So to control the draw rates.
Example: 1 mythical, increase deck size minimum by 5 - 10. This way, to control the drawing rates each turn :)



My personal experience is...
Elf ranger within 3 turns he already cast 3 mythical; hypersonic. Only single mythical and no combos.
But already dealing a total of 60 damage : reduced 60 defense : reduced 60 heals, all without combos and a single card type.

Imagine in the 4th turn, he draws 2 more mythical of the same type and he goes into the game with no restriction of minimum deck size.
10-20 deck size. Already drawing these mythical to change the game.


I hope you consider and discuss with the fellow developers about the gameplay and deck restriction so to improve the overall gameplay and those new guys who joined and those top ones above in the ranking, so everyone can get together and play not feeling inferior to challenge in the arena or knowing people who exploit the game by over excessively abusing the game by mythical.

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by Motylek » Sat May 09, 2015 10:01 pm

Hello Unireal,

No offense, but please, get more experience about game before making statements like that. I have 3 high level heroes - levels 95, 79, 73 and they all have all decks much bigger than 20 cards. I have lots of experience in this game and I can guarantee you, that anybody who would dare to face me with deck consisting of only 20 cards, he will lose without chance to win, no matter if he will have 8 same mythical cards.

Is word from experienced player, who is familiar with MtG as well, good enough for you? Setting any limits that you suggested is not only unnecessary, but also needless leading of player in "pre-scripted direction". Every player, who thinks it is good to create 20 cards deck should try it and see results for himself. Discovering is fun and it is adding value to the game.

Best regards
Motylek

Unireal
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 7:37 am
In-game user name: Unireal

Re: Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by Unireal » Sun May 10, 2015 9:15 am

hi Motylek,

it's about a suggestion being real and to tackle the existing problem. Don't have to be so uptight about it. It's about improving the game and tuning it to fine balance :)

1) You mentioned about you have 3 heroes and they all have much bigger decks than 20 card size.
2) You also mentioned, anybody who dare to face you with a deck consisting of 20 card size they will lose against you even if he have the same 8 identical cards.

3) Did you realise you are centralizing your only game experience with this game without seeing the whole big picture?
i) u play with more than 20 card size that doesn't mean all the other players do exactly the same as you do!
ii) They lose against you even with 20 card size with 8 mythical identical cards that is because you are level 95, 79, 73. Your stats bro!!


I am only level 52 and even though i am new to this game but speaking from a avid mtg player and as much as u have mentioned on your experience.
If there is no restriction on minimum deck size. People will look to exploit the game with the chances of drawing the same card over and over again.

This is what happens to our level currently. There are a lot of lower level players including me myself experience with this flaw. And we have come to a discussion to see to improve the game to strike that perfect balance.

I have no doubt that on that higher level, with more stats more skills training. Having the mythical cards standalone without combos and having more identical cards to 8, you wont be able to finish your opponent with this exploitation. That is what you are experiencing now.

But the overall community, at lower level is suffering on the fact that people are abusing this flaw. The lower level who fights the same guy over a course of three to four rounds.
The first 2 rounds is always hypersonic shots (mythical). And then, to the 3rd and fourth round he draws that same mythical again.
NO combos, just single four mythical to finish along with some other cards.

The drawing rates due to no limit of deck size. Fought with 2 different guy, elf ranger. First 3 turns is always that mythical hypersonic shot. Within 3 turns he already got 4 standalone cards.
I played 3-4 matches individually with that 2 different guy and it's the same experience.

I am speaking not on my personal experience but also part of the community who has been experiencing the same thing for us at lower level. :)

soulblighter
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 10:29 am
In-game user name: soulblighter

Re: Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by soulblighter » Sun May 10, 2015 10:59 am

.
Last edited by soulblighter on Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by Motylek » Sun May 10, 2015 12:45 pm

Hello Unireal,

I am sorry, but at hero level 52, skill Mentality is not possible to have under any circumstances even on first level (there are 5 levels of skill Mentality). So if your hero is at level 52 and you duel with player on similar level, you can not face anybody having 8 same mythical cards in deck. He can have at maximum only 3 same cards in deck. From this point of view, your suggestions related to skill Mentality are completely irrelevant.

Problem you have is laying somewhere else and is totally unrelated to skill Mentality. Problem is that you have Elf Keeper and you are dueling with Elf Archer. From 5 race/class combinations existing currently in game, Elf Archer is Nemesis for Elf Keeper and no other race/class build will give Elf Keeper as much difficulty as Elf Archer. Cause for you to losing duels with Elf Archer is power of Elf Archer cards and combos, not any skill like Mentality.

Best regards
Motylek

Unireal
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 7:37 am
In-game user name: Unireal

Re: Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by Unireal » Sun May 10, 2015 2:19 pm

Hi there Motylek,

infact, I accepted the challenge of players who is above level than me. 56-68 Levels.
56 is the closest level I have accepted the challenges and all of the same issue happens every first to 3rd turn. It's always mythical cards there.

Also, the level differences isn't a problem for me, just so that the skill differences as in training skill. It's also my fault for accepting these challenges :D
Cause their core skills of sisterhood; increasing duration where my decks cant even work on the debuffs and counters. I can understand I should get my skill training first.

But I want to test out on the mythical drawing rates, infact, the players I faced and many players of lower levels out there are facing these issues.

Look, I can understand your point of the mythical cards and I believe what the dev says about reaching higher levels, the standalone mythical identical cards doesn't pose a problem, infact, it is needed to deal with high level stats player.

What the problem surfaces here is NO minimum restriction on deck size, hence, giving those player with plenty of mythical cards to exploit this mechanism on lower level players with no skill points. :D

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by Motylek » Sun May 10, 2015 5:57 pm

I will say my personal opinion, which not everybody may like or agree, but it represents how I honestly see it.

If player A duels with player B on similar level and that opponent is using small deck, but he is regularly winning, player A is not good enough to win. Proper way to change this is to improve own strategy, not to set artificial restriction to "protect his interests". Setting arbitrary limits, because players are lazy to think and find out how to improve themselves is way of spoiled child and it is nothing healthy, it will only hurt environment. Unfortunately, restriction way is how things are working in present and it can be seen in many other games. If you would compare games of these days and games from 90's, you would see how these days games are mostly developed with casual player in mind, so "everybody will be able to win game without any trouble".

Also I would like to do comparison between Eldhelm type of game and MtG type of game. Why is restriction to have minimal size of deck absolutely needed in MtG and why not in Eldhelm?
- In Mtg duel players are starting with 0 mana (and is slowly increasing during turns) and unlimited number of "play slots" (there are no play slots in MtG, player can play unlimited number of spells in his turn as long as he has mana and cards to play). Once player have enough cards and enough mana, his development and progress is increasing exponentially.
- In Eldhelm, player has all his Energy available from start of duel, but is strongly limited in mumber of cards he can play, because there are some buff slots and only 2 play slots at start. No matter how much player tries, it is impossible to play some combo that finishes game right away by playing 10+ cards, repeating turn infinitely, etc.

If MtG player would start duel with maximum mana, which he needs and 10 cards in hand, he would have no problem to finish duel in first turn. But since Eldhelm has limitation of number of play slots and opponent has all his Energy available from start, so player can not get ahead with mana deployment, there is no need to impose deck limitation in Eldhelm. MtG duel development progress can go exponentially, but Eldhelm duel development progress is very limited and no way exponential.

So, I am sorry for saying my opinion like that, but if you have trouble with small decks, you need to improve yourself instead of imposing limit to everybody else. Trying to make yourself as good as others is way to go instead of limiting everybody else to make them as bad as you.

Best regards
Motylek

Unireal
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 7:37 am
In-game user name: Unireal

Re: Deck Size control / Identical Mythical cards Maximum

Post by Unireal » Sun May 10, 2015 10:27 pm

Sorry, I cant agree with you. Currently the game is flawed with no deck size minimum and it's a fact and the flaws is real and happening.
It's not that we do not have a strategy or that we are not good. As a long term MTG player how bad can you be with TCG.

BOE has 3 race 5 classes. Each different class has it's own unique style and strategy to dictate the game. The Elf keeper is designed as a medium to late game hero. It's is about control and putting out most of your cards onto the 'continuous play board' to get the maximum result.
Where else for the others, some are tankers, hard damager and quick turn for lethal damage.


Below is your quote: Let me clarify and explain to you;

@@@@@@@@@@@@Also I would like to do comparison between Eldhelm type of game and MtG type of game. Why is restriction to have minimal size of deck absolutely needed in MtG and why not in Eldhelm?
- In Mtg duel players are starting with 0 mana (and is slowly increasing during turns) and unlimited number of "play slots" (there are no play slots in MtG, player can play unlimited number of spells in his turn as long as he has mana and cards to play). Once player have enough cards and enough mana, his development and progress is increasing exponentially.
- In Eldhelm, player has all his Energy available from start of duel, but is strongly limited in mumber of cards he can play, because there are some buff slots and only 2 play slots at start. No matter how much player tries, it is impossible to play some combo that finishes game right away by playing 10+ cards, repeating turn infinitely, etc.

If MtG player would start duel with maximum mana, which he needs and 10 cards in hand, he would have no problem to finish duel in first turn. But since Eldhelm has limitation of number of play slots and opponent has all his Energy available from start, so player can not get ahead with mana deployment, there is no need to impose deck limitation in Eldhelm. MtG duel development progress can go exponentially, but Eldhelm duel development progress is very limited and no way exponential.

So, I am sorry for saying my opinion like that, but if you have trouble with small decks, you need to improve yourself instead of imposing limit to everybody else. Trying to make yourself as good as others is way to go instead of limiting everybody else to make them as bad as you. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@




:idea: You are right on the above but you have overlook one major factor that I believe every MTG player can identify this flaw.
MTG : There's no restriction on the battlefield to play as long as you got the eligible mana. Per Turn: Infinite to cast as long as you got mana
BOE: In contrast, BOE is characterized by Hero RPG formula on HP and Mana as individual on play. Per Turn: Max 2 cards to play.

:roll: But you failed to identify one thing.
MTG: Is very diversified. Don't forget that there are creatures to block damage during combat phase and instances where you can 'INTERRUPT' to Counter your opponent's play. There is 'Upkeep' phase before drawing for every permanent effects to realise it's effect; from Damage to golden rule. This is very strategic and boundless and endless gameplay that make it a game where the master of the mind and tactician wins the game :geek:

BOE: Fully rely on combat phase to sum up the turn and calculation score. Now, mind you. I really appreciate BOE combat mechanism, it's actually very interesting and more complex in the way how the score is finalised here. Regular and bonus Damage. 1 (regular) + 20 (Bonus) = 0 regular damage and 1000 bonus damage? = Zero Damage !
Per turn 2 cards to play.
Very interesting and strategic.
The cards on the continuous play board only has it's duration and NO effect until the realization of the combat phase, the battlefield which is the summoning area has only 2 game slot per play this again, make it very strategic in a gameplay like this where you need to pan out your every move before the moving to the combat phase to have it's effects.

*However, each character is built differently and has a style of approach to the game where it's defines by the character built and pace to the game. To have the 'Minimum' Deck size is to regulate a system for striking a more definite and balanced gameplay.

NO Matter how good you are at tactically allocating the stats to the character.., the hard truth is each hero is characterized by it's built and it's RPG element stats. It has an advantage and disadvantage to it's stats built, Cards, style of play and pace to the game.

Now tell me, Keeper is a caster/ low Health and designed to drag and hold out until it's card is summon on ground for the deadly combos to dictate the game
Other hero is designed to play as tanker or lethal blow per turn or defines by quick Pure Damage.
In saying this, each character has it's unique style of play if there is no deck size 'Minimum' how is it fair to go in for a fair challenge where some are exploiting by using those pure high damager cards, standalone cards in a few turns to change the game.

I have just battle another opponent and I purposely do that to experience the flaws. Elf ranger level 54 (Mana 250) / (10might)
I am keeper level 55 with 150 hp and 17 regen. This game I challenge him cause I think it will be fair as he have no skill tree of sister hood to increase duration.

I played a total of 2 match with him. All within 5 turns to lose to him. For 2 match same thing happens again for this elf ranger as the same as the other 2 previous elf ranger I have fought.
1st Turn: Hunting Ritual x 2 (22 regular dmg) / Buff x 1; Toughness - Total: 44 (regular dmg)
2nd Turn: 1 x Dispel, 1 x Trap - combo trigger with toughness (Trap of despair) adding 30 bonus dmg plus another 44 dmg: Total 74dmg
3rd Turn: 2 x Hypersonic shots (20 regular dmg / reduce 20 defense)
4th Turn or Fifth turn: I forgotten. I am dead.

*It's not the total damage or the mythical is a threat. The main threat is its 'REGULAR' dmg. It's simply that high and players are purposely exploiting by going in the challenge by playing with a few number of cards consisting of these to type of mythical for it's raw damage.

NOW, tell me, even the most powerful and less resource summon for keeper to negate raw damage is none other than......
1 x Brain Strain (reduce 2 dmg)
1x Shock (reduce 9 dmg)
Combos: Brain Shock (reduce 20 'REGULAR' dmg)

*and you clearly said and understood that BOE is restricted to 2 play slot per turn and now, Look at the first turn.
Keeper play out 2 cards with combo can this negate 2x hypersonic or 2x Hunting ritual?
the answer simply is NO. Don't forget to take into account of the player bonus might as well. :lol:

*The problem is not the mythical cards and the problem doesn't exist with the Total dmg.
Example: 1 'REGULAR' dmg + 100 'BONUS' dmg
Ans: You can negate this 101 dmg by reducing the 1 'REGULAR' dmg. = ZERO SCORE

The real hard truth problem exist in the drawing rates of the cards. That many elf ranger players are simply EXPLOITING the game by going in with no' MINIMUM' deck size to CONSISTENLY drawing these raw damager standalone mythical cards to change the game within turns.

This guy I played with 2 rounds, after that I message him and ask him how many cards in your deck you play with...? Before he gave me the answer,
I told him, you play with 20 card size :lol: ?
His respond: :) He said 21

***I knew it!****

Of all the 3 players I met elf ranger first to 3 rounds consecutively drawing none other but mythical cards only. How is it possible?
Either he is have the skill slots of 'IDENTICAL' cards or he is playing with that SMALL deck size to CONSISTENTLY draw these mythical for raw damage to change the game within turns.
:lol:



Sorry to say this, I can't agree with you and your opinions. You may be very experienced in BOE and may have been in this game for a long time but u are blind to the fact where you are at the prime of your character of the highest where a single non combo mythical doesn't pose a threat to you but that doesn't mean we players under and below level have the same fair experience as much as you do when you are throwing the line with your high stats and high skill level putting out your statement here.

That doesn't mean you are good strategically or I am a lousy player in BOE. Just so you ignore the whole picture of players playing elf ranger filled with mythical and with a small deck size to exploit this game.

I can fairly tell you. A MTG player how bad can he be? Try to think and digest instead of looking at this point in a direction.

Take it neutrally so to realize it's current flaws, improve it for a better future.

:roll:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests