Orc Shaman Expansion

Discussions about the gameplay and critique regarding the current state of the game and it's features.

Moderator: Essence Team

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Motylek » Mon May 23, 2016 6:57 am

Another bit of feedback ...

I think, caster class Mythical cards are generally underpowered. Both Divine Rain and Bloodlust (I commented Unicorn Spirit in my previous post already) are very weak. They would fit as an Epic card, but their power do not feel as Mythical. Also please notice, that both cards have primarily healing purpose unlike all other classes Mythical cards (Exception is Human Knight Resurrection, but its healing power is way above those puny caster class healing cards.) and remind my previous post about regeneration decrease combos hitting various classes with different impact (Casters are affected much more than others.) and regeneration decrease combos being ones with the highest numbers (Only bonus damage combos have higher numbers.). I suppose designers thought that its 3 turns duration will make it up for it, but that is not the case. I would say designers already shown their different understanding of duration versus power in case of Prayer balance changes. Designers could be right on lower levels, where heroes do not have yet trained skills, but on lets say 70+ levels, it makes really no difference if card has duration 2 or 3. In higher levels duels, you could see some dispel combo or duration increase/decrease cards every second turn and 3 turns duration cards are as good as if they would have had just 2 turns duration.

Not to mention that principle of dividing power of card into more turns than 2 and compromising its power as compensation for it, is questionable itself. It is easier to explain it on case with 1 turn versus 2 turns duration, so I will describe example on Prayer, but anyway it works same in case of 2 turns versus 3 turns duration. So here is the example...
- Lets have 1 turn duration card Prayer1, which give +14 bonus damage and +14 heal.
- Lets have a Prayer2 card, which has 2 turns duration and gives +7 bonus damage and +7 heal.
- Lets have an opponent Hero2 who has skill that reduces opponents bonus damage by 2 and reduces opponents regeneration by 2 (There could be more factors involved like skills that increase own defense of Hero2 or increase own bonus damage of Hero2, but lets not consider this in our example).
-> When Prayer1 is played, result is +12 bonus damage and +12 heal.
-> When Prayer2 is played and stays on battlefield for 2 turns, result is +10 bonus damage and +10 heal.
Please notice, that I was taking into consideration only 2 skills of opponent Hero2, but he could have another 2 skills, that would affect result. The higher level of hero is, the more skills he has trained and the more affected are cards with longer duration. (I admit, that Hero1, who is playing Prayer cards, could have some skills that are supporting his cards too, but generally, whenever effect of card in duel is significant, opponent will make sure to deal with it, if it lasts for more turns. At example he will play Mystify -30 bonus damage, which he is saving for time of need.) All in all, if you take 1 turn duration card and make 2 turns duration card from it, its power should not be same as sum of values for 2 turns. (I hope you realized that when balancing Prayer actually exisiting in game.) 2 turns duration cards should get more than halved power of 1 turn duration card. There is anyway always risk, that card will be somehow dismissed and will not live to make second turn effect, while 1 turn duration card will manage to do it all in its first and only one turn. (Btw, that is also reason why Orc Warrior is the best hero in the game.)
Same principles are valid for combos derived from those 1 or 2 turns duration cards and same priciples are valid for comparation between 2 turns and 3 turns duration cards.

My summary as I see it, extra turn of caster class Mythical cards has very little effect in high level heroes duels and numbers on caster class Mythical cards are too low.

Best regards
Motylek

chew13
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:43 pm
In-game user name: chew

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by chew13 » Tue May 24, 2016 12:50 pm

Dear Game Masters,

I may not be as articulate as Motylek with regards to the games' mechanics, but I agree that Elf Casters are too weak.

Please, I play a level 96 Elf Caster with most of my skills maxed, and I really would like to have a fair winning chance against the other classes around my level. Right now on average I get my ass kicked by Orc Warriors in 3 rounds, Elf Archers in 4 rounds, and Human Rogues in 6 rounds. Everyday is a depressing "get-my-ass-kicked-repeatedly" day.

I have tried long decks, short decks, drain energy decks, dispel-da-shit-out-of-em decks, brute force decks, balanced decks, and whatever combos you may think of, but the result is still the same.

Please, take my character, skills and cards and play with the other top players, and you will see what I mean.

I like this game, I really do. The game is interesting if I win some and lose some in duels, but it has been very boring when there is no winning chance in duel vs players my levels. Please do balance this.

On another note, here is a suggestion to make the game more interesting. Right now in Training game, the bots on "Very hard' Difficulty setting is no challenge at all for top level players. How about adding a "Insane" mode with bots having max skills and the best of all cards. These bots can also mimic the playing style of the various top players including their short decks. Would really make good training sessions if this is possible.

Thank you.

Best regards,
Chew

Llaine
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 6:54 pm
In-game user name: Teufel184

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Llaine » Tue May 24, 2016 7:26 pm

I'm going to have to agree with others here about the effectiveness of casters in duels. Now I'm no expert, I was around lvl 60 when the shamans were added and then finished the elf/orc campaigns in like 2 days which shot me up to lvl 90. I had hoped that perhaps having the extra heroic cards or extra stat points would change the dynamic I encountered up until that point. It did not.

Against the AI, I could run a 60 card deck and run a long game win or cut it down to 30-40 cards and win in 5-10 turns. Against a player (assuming I found anyone to play against) it did not matter what I did because I'd die in 5 turns to someone who could hit me for over 100 and drop a dispel every turn. My 40+ points of regen? No worries, everyone completely negates any healing while bypassing whatever armor I manage to cast (of course we have no way to boost resistance without spending points at a 12:1 ratio).

Against the AI, extending spells so I have 13 cards ticking away each turn is possible. There, duration is an asset and dispel only really happens when they can combo it. Against a player, dispel can happen every 1-2 turns and I end up with absolutely no defense against that. Since dispel is a card that absolutely everyone can use and you can have up to 8 of them in your deck (not that you would since everyone else runs a 20 card deck, but still), there is no advantage to a deck that relies on having cards last 5-6 turns to do decent damage.

I haven't played as a shaman, but at least mental harrassment gives them some sort of chance to pull a mythic out of ynur hand. Their mythic lightning also does the exact same damage as unicorn yet has two useful additional effects.

If dispel was not available to everone and they had to rely on the various turn reducing cards instead, I think casters might at least stand a chance of getting somewhere. The skills to extend/reduce bonus durations are made irrelevent when you can remove a 20 duration spell as easily as a 2 turn one.

chew13
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:43 pm
In-game user name: chew

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by chew13 » Tue May 24, 2016 11:16 pm

Consider Elf Archer's mythical card - Hypersonic Shot
125 EP to use
2 turns
+20 Damage
-20 opponent's defence
-20 opponent's heal

vs. Elf Keeper's mythical card - Purifying Rain
150 EP to use
3 turns
+12 Damage
+11 Heal

Not only does Hypersonic Shot uses less EP, it reduces and damage way much more than a Keeper can stack healing cards and combos, and the best healing cards a keeper has is only +17 heal from Cleansing.

I believe that I have among the highest regen in the player base, and it is totally useless against any max skilled archer who from the first round buff a few Moral Blow and just keep stacking Hypersonic Shot with Strategy Excellence. It is simply impossible to out-stack or heal or block when frequently I have to use 2 cards to achieve what they do with 1.

Please balance Elf Keeper, thank you.

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Motylek » Wed May 25, 2016 7:25 am

Hello,

To be honest, Chew, you can not really compare EP of cards of different classes (ranged, caster) like that. It is matter of specific development of those classes. For caster class, 1 stat point translates into 4 energy points, while for ranged class 1 stat point translates into 2 energy points. However this difference in EP is compensated in other ways like HP and other "stat points to attributes" conversion ratio.

Nonetheless what really matter are other attributes of cards, which you mentioned and you displayed disadvantage of Elf Keeper very well with it. At example if Hypersonic Shot is aiming against Orc Warrior, it really deals 20 basic damage. But if it is aimed against Elf Keeper, it practically deals 20 basic damage + 20 bonus damage -> 40 damage in total. It is because reducing 20 points of heal counts as 20 extra bonus damage. So it is obvious, that Hypersonic Shot has different effectivity against different classes and the most affected class is Elf Keeper. (Or in other words, if Hypersonic Shot would not have -20 regeneration reduction attribute, but instead +20 bonus damage, result would be for Elf Keeper same, but this time it would affect also all other classes.) Technically, if Elf Keeper would be going to duel with Elf Archer and he knew, that Elf Archer is going to use Hypersonic Shots during whole duel, it would be more effective for that one next duel to reset Elf Keeper and invest 0 stat points into Regeneration and instead invest those extra stat points into HP, but anyway Elf Keeper is not meant to be built like that and he will not be really effective, nonetheless he will be more effective than if having stat points invested into regeneration like it is under normal circumstances supposed to be. And I already mentioned in my previous post that caster class healing cards are quite puny in fullfiling their healing role. Caster class Mythical cards are all underpowered with exception of Orc Shaman Thunderstorm.

In my opinion Elf Keeper is the weakest hero build for 2 reasons. He has clearly the weakest Mythical cards and all classes have huge regeneration reduction combos available, which are being translated as extra bonus damage working the most effectively against Elf Keeper (and also Orc Shaman) and having SIGNIFICANTLY less effect on all other classes, so those combos are really one sided discrimination.

Another example is Buff slot Mythical cards, which are reducing bonus damage and reducing heal. They have much bigger effect on Elf Keeper than on anybody else even if they would have no combos assigned to them to decrease healing even more. (They are translating as extra bonus damage against Elf Keeper.) And you know what, since they are Buff slot cards, there could be 6 of them in effect in same time, while there are only 2 battlefield slots available, plus dispel and duration decrease cards are affecting only Battlefield slots, but not Buff slots. (Of course there are other ways how to affect Buff slots, but generally, it is much harder to deal with Buff slots than with Battlefield slots.)

Best regards
Motylek

Skill Hunter
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:29 am
In-game user name: Skill Hunter

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Skill Hunter » Thu May 26, 2016 9:15 pm

Hello
I was just reading the comments below
First i want to thank you for the awesome work on balancing the game at least now some can have a fighting chance
Second and after reading all the comments i have to disagree with all about the elf keeper
At high lvls I believe the most strongest character is elf keeper he is the only character that if you dont keep hitting its like you never hit him and he dont have to use any cards to heal well that was before the orc shaman that we have now
After that is said the elf keeper have the most unique fighting style basically i never lose to an elf keeper unless i used all my cards which happen mostly to ebichu
So basically fighting with elf keeper is the most boring fights ever but still the character have allot of healing and that magic shield dispel combo is almost impossible to break i mean most keeper players at high lvl have over 60heal and with that 80def combo it's impossible to penetrate while i have to agree with motylek about the mythical cards for elf keepers while it had 3 turn duration which suppose to make it really good it's actually the worst mythical cards in the game
I believe changing the mythical cards for a keeper must be done but no combos must add cause keepers with high might combo and with their healing power will be impossible to defeat
Now i cant talk about how well others play against keeper but for rogue you must have an opening to kill it otherwise you cant win basically you need all the good cards which must be about 7 or 8 cards in hands or in the field and all must be played in two turn or three one after another or you wont win against an elf keeper now a high might keeper or keepers with powerful combos probably wont give you the chance to have all these cards you will be dead before you can have them all that id you had the chance or opening to play them all thats why i fear that the orc shaman will be the strongest character at high lvls
While i think a new topic must talk about the elf keeper but since we are talking about it here i must agree on the mythical cards it's basically useless the only problem is how and if it going to effect the balance of the game
And thx again for your great work

1mb4k4
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:26 am
In-game user name: 1mb4k4

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by 1mb4k4 » Fri May 27, 2016 10:58 am

Hi,

Just to let you know there is another change.
The Shamanic Curse Card now lasts 3 turns instead of 10

Regards,

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Motylek » Fri May 27, 2016 12:32 pm

Hello Skill Hunter, please let me reply to your post
Skill Hunter wrote: After that is said the elf keeper have the most unique fighting style basically i never lose to an elf keeper unless i used all my cards which happen mostly to ebichu
Does not it exactly say, how Elf Keeper is weak? Especially if you realize that before doing 4th newly added campaign, you were mere level 91 and you were beating all top level Elf Keepers even if they were above your level, except Ebichu, who was even before it at maximum level. In my opinon, Ebichu Elf Keeper is winning with you only because of level difference and Ebichu great skill as player. Great player can get good results despite playing with weaker hero.
Skill Hunter wrote: So basically fighting with elf keeper is the most boring fights ever but still the character have allot of healing and that magic shield dispel combo is almost impossible to break i mean most keeper players at high lvl have over 60heal and with that 80def combo it's impossible to penetrate
Personally, my Elf Keeper level 95 has currently only 59 regeneration, but that is not so important. Point is that this regeneration is not for free, it is at cost of HP and Elf Keeper from all heroes is the most prone to be quick finished. In ideal scenario, it needs about 2 or 3 good rounds to shot down Elf Keeper from full health to 0. Please notice, that Elf Keeper has no skill for resistance, while other heroes have skills to decrease opponents resistance, so you can never count 80 points of defense from Shield of Anisotropy fully. But more important, if Shield of Anisotropy is not supported with regeneration in same time, it means nothing except getting 1 extra turn of delaying unevitable loss. And that is what I was talking about, regeneration reduction combos are too high in values. It is enough if you can stack 6 regeneration reduction mythical buff slot cards to kill Elf Keeper, but on top of it, there are still regeneration reduction combos with high values and that is what I meant in my previous posts. Those combos (not buff slot cards themselves) are overkill for Elf Keepers to have fair duel. Btw, just check regeneration reduction combos, they have easily 60+ regeneration reduction with exception for Human Knight heroes. Simply one combo reduce all regeneration of Elf Keeper and against that, Shield of Anisotropy is doing nothing except buying 1 extra round before loss.
PS: Especially check Elven Agility+Parasite Infection combo. It is overkill in its essence. Two Buff slot cards reducing ALL regeneration for duration of 10 turns! (Player has multiple copies of Parasite Infection in his deck.) It totally breaks basic principles, which I described in here...
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6191&start=10#p8016
Skill Hunter wrote: while i have to agree with motylek about the mythical cards for elf keepers while it had 3 turn duration which suppose to make it really good it's actually the worst mythical cards in the game
I believe changing the mythical cards for a keeper must be done but no combos must add cause keepers with high might combo and with their healing power will be impossible to defeat
That is it. All what I was suggesting for making better balance was to improve Mythical cards. I did not say anything about adding combos for Elf Keeper. I rather would like to make game more fair through improving Elf Keeper mythical cards and decreasing values of regeneration reduction combos (I talk about regeneration reduction combos, not regeneration reduction cards themselves).
Skill Hunter wrote: Now i cant talk about how well others play against keeper but for rogue you must have an opening to kill it otherwise you cant win basically you need all the good cards which must be about 7 or 8 cards in hands or in the field and all must be played in two turn or three one after another or you wont win against an elf keeper
All of heroes have this opening to kill Elf Keeper and like I described in previous post, Elf Keeper has chance to win only against unprepared opponent. If opponent knows, he is going to fight Elf Keeper, he takes anti-Keeper deck and gives Elf Keeper no chance. There is not single favorable matchup for Elf Keeper. All duels are disadvantageous uphill battles for Elf Keeper.
Skill Hunter wrote: While i think a new topic must talk about the elf keeper but since we are talking about it here i must agree on the mythical cards it's basically useless the only problem is how and if it going to effect the balance of the game
Normally, I would make also specific topic, but in this case, I consider it as part of balancing changes, that are comming with new expansion. But generally, I agree on this with you.

Best regards
Motylek

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Motylek » Fri May 27, 2016 12:54 pm

Hello Andrey,

By making Shamanic Curse lasting just 3 turns, it is now more balanced and acceptable from power point of view. But what I was trying to tell in all my previous posts related to Shamanic Curse and its combos, it is not fitting technically. It does not feel like what it should have been. It is breaking homogenity and consistence and essence what Heroic cards are supposed to be.

Shamanic curse should be:
- 10 turns duration
- calmness 3
- since it is buff slot card, it should be more supportive oriented, not really damage oriented card and combos (please compare it with other Heroic Buff slot card Elven Agility)

Because it is breaking all 3 points above (but it has to break them, because otherwise, it would be overpowered) it clearly shows, that Shamanic Curse has fundamentaly wrong design.

Also I dislike how vaguely is "Incompetence" defined. I was writing it already in the first reply in this topic. It should not use "basic EP" in its definition. I wrote my reasoning already in first reply.

So finally, I like it not being overpovered like before, but I really disagree with its design.

Best regards
Motylek

chew13
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:43 pm
In-game user name: chew

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by chew13 » Fri May 27, 2016 9:25 pm

How about a change to the Soul Illness card? Instead of -30 heal and -10 bonus damage, switch it around to be -30 bonus damage and -10 heal?

This way while they reduce keepers' heal, keepers can reduce their bonus damage.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest