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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 8:08 am
by kylll
I propose to talk about what should be new combos with orc-shaman heroic.
I think, first of all, a new heroic must be not buffer.
Second, I propose to change the combo orc warrior and archer.
43 damage +60 attack -43 defense -45 heal
63 damage -100 ep 38 heal

correct me,pls.

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:11 am
by Essence Team
Motylek wrote:Hello,

Up to now, I thought, that only player versus player is destroyed due to Shamanic Curse, because all you see now are 10 cards decks, that are winning within 4 turns. But to my surprise, Shamanic Curse destroyed player versus AI too. I was playing Daily Quest with my Human Knight Erik level 54 and AI came up with Shamanic Curse combo for Archer. This is really cherry on top of play experience destruction, that you made with expansion. THERE IS NO WAY HOW CHARACTER ON LEVEL 54 COULD GET SHAMANIC CURSE BY NORMAL PLAY! Any hero, that is able to finish last 4th campaign has to be stronger than mere level 54, but even if hero would be able to finish it on level 54, all experience gained by finishing campaign would give him so much experience, that he would be safely 90+ level. No AI hero in Daily Quest below level 90 should posses Shamanic Curse and also Shamanic Curse should not be able to draw in Arena mode for levels 1-49.

Gameplay experience of this, once fantastic masterpiece, is shattered to the ground. Did you do at least some basic playtesting? :-(

Hi Molytek,

First of all please calm down. As I said before we're in balance testing period. Nothing from the current numbers and parameters will stay unchecked. We haven't introduced new content from awhile. The "fantastic masterpiece" you mentioned (and I almost came in my pants with joy reading this combination of words :D ) was a product of long and number of balance tunes and changes.

We knew that introducing Shamanic Curse and Mental Harassment is dangerous and that there are a lot of unknowns. We have not "stolen" their mechanics from MTG because we don't play MTG. We want to try some different mechanics and see how they fit to our game. Introducing a totally new mechanics brings highly unpredictable balance issues. We want to keep the game balanced but not conservative. We want to introduce new mechanics and of course if some of them do not fit well, we'll change them. Or remove them. Our only way to test a new mechanics is to build it and bring it public. We can't simulate with AI every aspect of a new mechanics nor we have the budget to make a professional playtesting. You and all the other players are our playtesters :) If it was a masterpiece, it's also because of its players!

And the feedback of all of you is very helpful for us. No, they're not helpful - we count on them!

And if I don't respond to all of your posts that doesn't mean that I don't read them nor take them into account :)

So in summary - I'm preparing the next balance change in the next 36 h. Stay tuned!

P.S. I didn't receive any feedback about the Orc Shaman on its own (I mean playing with not against him). I'll be grateful if I receive also some feedbacks about him.

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 12:09 pm
by Essence Team
Skill Hunter wrote:Hello
Well first of things i must congratulate you on the new character ☺️ While i think it might been to stronge
I mean it's basically a Caster with high might and new tactics which can take away all the cards you got in hands so you guys almost made him invincible
Second you weakened the Human rogue while it is weak enough with the decrease of the loyal prayer combo
But thats not all what most importantly is this combo of the orc warrior i mean wth is that no one can survive 5 turns now am talking about the Cursed Strike ?????
43 attack ok 126 bonus attack ????????????
88 defense decrease????????? 183 healing decrease?????????
So basically its 169 hit and nothing can stop it !!!!!
What was that made for !! Are you guys serious??
You can play it from the first turn by the third turn the game is over and you can do a thing am so frustrated with this game i just got my butt kicked against someone with 10 cards deck and app what i was able to do is watching him attack over and over for 5 turns maximum you only need two buff and one play card ?!?!?!?!?? You guys should really consider adding such a combo its like the orc mythical card is not bad enough that there is no way to stop it and now you made a devastating combo with it ??? And you call that a balance changes !?!?!
Hello Skill Hunter,
We will nurf all combos with Shamanic Curse. But the Orc Warrior's combo can last only 1 turn, and cannot be prolonged with increase duration. So don't expect it not to be powerful.

Regarding Royal Prayer - we have introduced a lot of weak-to-medium combos for each character. We needed for balance issue to make the common for Human card Prayer with duration 2 (instead of 1). Of course we decreased with 50% its parameters (and the effect of the combos it is participating in like Royal Prayer) actually not changing their total effect (50% smaller effects but for double the turns). Also now these combos can be prolonged with increase duration.

If you have noticed the increased duration of Prayer and of Royal Prayer, please explain in detail why you dislike this new setup?

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:36 pm
by Motylek
Essence Team wrote: And if I don't respond to all of your posts that doesn't mean that I don't read them nor take them into account :)

So in summary - I'm preparing the next balance change in the next 36 h. Stay tuned!

P.S. I didn't receive any feedback about the Orc Shaman on its own (I mean playing with not against him). I'll be grateful if I receive also some feedbacks about him.

Ok, I was quite annoyed, because I could see right away, that things, as they were introduced, are really missing balance and not getting response in forum was putting oil into fire for me ... :-)

I am very much looking forward to further balance changes. I personally would suggest, that Shamanic Curse should not be exception from other Heroic cards in term of some minimal calmness along to making it much less weaker. Generally Shamanic Curse 3 cards combos (1 Heroic, 1 Mythical, 1 Epic) should be less than half of power of 5 cards combos. (5 cards combos with Elven Vigor, Human Tactics, Orc Ferocity are made by 3 Heroic and 2 Mythical cards). I hope you see how terribly overpowered Shamanic Curse is, just from looking at rarity of cards and their numbers, which are composing combos. Not to mention that "Buff slot cards" are much harder to get rid off, so they should provide weaker effect than "Battlefield slot cards". As I look at it all around, Shamanic Curse combos should be one third of power of 5 cards combos at maximum.

Regarding feedback about Orc Shaman, for me it needs more time since I like to enjoy hero building without rushing it and my Orc Shaman is yet at level 11, which is too low to get full picture. But still I have some impression. I like his animal shaping abilities, but I would personally do it a little different way. I would make beneficial for Shaman to chose one of forms and stick to it. At example have some cards with certain effect and then have that effect stronger if Shaman is in Bear form, but not in normal or Jaguar form. Or even have some cards that are in normal form doing absolutely nothing, but in certain form have quite strong effect. But that is just hypothetical thinking without knowing Orc Shaman status quo yet.

PS: Orc Shaman mythical card "Parasite Infection" has overpowered combos. Just compare its combos with Elf Keepers "Soul Illness" and you will see it. There is no rational reason why all combos of Parasite Infection should reduce regeneration more than combos of Soul Illness, especially when comparing cards themselves alone, Parasite Infection has lesser regeneration reduction attribute.

Best regards

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:35 pm
by Skill Hunter
Well thx for the response
But lets see not to make it powerful huh
You guys didnt make it powerful you made it insane
I really wonder if you guys actually play the game
Try to play the game against an orc and see for your self
3 turn and it will kill anything if you get lucky you wipl last 4 or 5 turn and what all this fuzz about the duration??? But i guess it's expected let me tell you something with 5 resistance and 5 dispel cards you can stop any duration that if the opponent didnt have 8 and evern if he didnt he actually dont have to play any his combo is way to powerful to stop or even to match so you really cant stop it
The way i see it if you gave the orcs so many powerful cards you should at least weakened his combo or at least make it hard to achieve! You guys gave him powerful cards and powerful combos and so easy to acheive and when we say plz do something about it you guys says well the orc dont have duration?????!!!!! Wth is that ????
So imagine with me you playing against an orc with 500hp and the first or the second turn he hit you with 170 hit and play a dispel then the other turn the same hit with resistance then the other turn with another resistance or dispel 4 turns and the game is over that if your health was 400 !?!? You have no way to stop it the combo is very easy and so powerful!?!?!? Let me suggest something to make it balance its eather powerful combo or powerful cards or a complicated combo no a powerful combo with a powerful card with an easy combo !! Oh and the problem with prayer yes you made a medium combo which take 4 cards and its ok but again you guys depends on duration to much while playing against a caster or a range it might be ok but against a melee character duration is basically useless specially orcs which either play dispel or resistance each turn probably only a Caster type can keep its duration but range cant keep it up and its ok cause it was balanced every thing has it weakness that how should it be but lately at high level i see the orcshave no weakness at all their attack is devastating and their combo are too powerful and the heal so fast the only weakness they got is EP but with a combo that take almost 170hp they really dont need much EP and that all about the orc still the archer is very powerful as well 180 ep gone with each attack ????? Whats that ?? Nd what i mean you made you prayer uselss i mean it its useless now duration dont matter it was the only combo where you can actually heal a rogue and against a powerful oppnent and you just made it worst now rogues have too many weakness they cant heal and their defense is worthless the shamanic combo is no as powerful as the orcs nor the archer and can't defend like the knight and cant heal like the Casters ???!!! I start playering with rogue cause they looked like a character who dont hit much but have a complicated powerful combo which is awesome but with each update you give other characters easy powerful combos which are more powerful than the combos that given to the rogue then you say well that have duration!!!! I dont really see it fair

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 5:41 am
by Motylek
Regarding matters that Skill Hunter pointed out ...

I also wonder if game designers are actually playing game and if they have recent game experience. It sometimes really does not look like and new cards design was clearly hinting it. Or if you really have game experience, you must have had some reasons to make really drastical changes to game like Shamanic Curse, Mental Harassment and Parasite Infection shows. You pushed those 3 cards too much far, beyond any reasonable limits.

Regarding balance changes to Human class card Prayer, it is definitely weakening card and its combo. (I agree on this with Skill Hunter.)
However, I think, it was correct step to make it weaker. (I disagree on this with Skill Hunter.)
Some time ago, I made for myself comparation table regarding Class/Race mutual performance, so my table reflects status before last game expansion few days ago. In my table, heroes are from the most powerful to the weakest ones in this order:
Orc Warrior > Human Rogue > Human Knight > Elf Archer > Elf Keeper
As I personally see it, Prayer weakening is a good way to make better balance. Yet there should be some more than a bit weakening of Orc Warrior as he is clearly the strongest hero build in the game. Good way for it would be to make Orc Warrior battlefield slot mythical cards (Shattering Strike, Blood Festival) having 2 turns duration with half effect and weakening respondingly its derived combos. (Basicaly same weakening process, which you did to Prayer and its combo, but you thought of it as strenghtening, I guess. :-p) And please do not push Orc Shaman so much, because Orcs are already ruling this game with Humans in the middle and poor Elves just securing back position ...


PS: Various people have various opinions and not everybody will agree to strenght ordering of heroes, which I present. But also there are others, who agree with it. I was talking on this theme with several other players in game and I am not alone with my opinion. I think, I am enough experienced player to have "moral right" to present heroes strenght ordering like that with certain bit of responsibility in my opinion. :-) Also finding out what heroes are about is main reason, why I have heroes of all Race/Class combinations in my player account.

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:19 pm
by kylll
i think orc always was strongest hero in game. And old players think that too. But i not undestand why U make him more powerful. It make game more unbalanse.
And I do not consider the new combo with new heroic.
U good modify Knight. He was weak, but now better.
But about prayer I agree with Skill hunter - Now rogue cant heal...

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:52 am
by 1mb4k4
We have just applied some balance changes.
Here is a detailed list:

Common for ALL
Shamanic Curse:
Calmness is increased from 0 to 1
Common for Human:
Bonus Damage from 6 is increased to 7
Heal from 8 is increased to 9
EP Cost from 55 is increased to 62
Royal Prayer:
Bonus Damage from 24 is increased to 35
Heal from 32 is increased to 45

Orc Warrior
Groin Kick:
Damages from 12 is reduced to 10
Reduce Opponent’s Damage increased from 7 to 10
Bonus Damages from 15 is reduced to 13
EP Cost from 31 is reduced to 28
Mood for War:
Damages from 7 is reduced to 5
Foul Rampage:
Bonus Damages from 12 is reduced to 11
Brutal Marauding:
Bonus Damages from 13 is reduced to 10
Orcish Fury:
Bonus Damages from 34 is reduced to 33
Royal Rampage:
Bonus Damages from 23 is reduced to 20
Compelling Mood for War:
Damages from 14 is reduced to 10
Rampage of the Strongest:
Bonus Damages from 77 is reduced to 73
Burning Blow:
Bonus Damages from 47 is reduced to 32
Cursed Strike:
Bonus Damages from 125 is reduced to 63
Reduce Opponent’s Defence from 53 is reduced to 35
Reduce Opponent’s Heal from 180 is reduced to 60

Human Rogue
Holy Trap:
Bonus Damage from 30 is increased to 35
Heal from 8 is increased to 14
Cursed Trap:
Bonus Damages from 68 is reduced to 40
Reduce Opponent’s Damage from 12 is reduced to 8
Defence from 30 is reduced to 15

Human Knight
Holy Purge:
Bonus Damage from 35 is increased to 36
Heal from 8 is increased to 9
King's Resurrection:
Heal from 69 is increased to 89
Royal Justice:
Defence from 31 is increased to 40
Bonus Damage from 51 is increased to 62
Cursed Justice:
56 Defence is removed
Bonus Damage from 63 is increased to 69

Elf Keeper
Now starts with 2 Energy Potion cards instead of one
Sacred Storm:
Bonus Damage from 6 is increased to 40
Divine Rain:
Bonus Damage from 21 is increased to 27
Defence from 9 is increased to 12
Divine Unicorn:
Bonus Damage from 41 is increased to 52
Soul Control:
Reduce Opponent’s Heal from 50 is increased to 65
Reduce Opponent’s Bonus Damage from 30 is increased to 35
God of the Elves:
Bonus Damage from 67 is increased to 73
Cursed Unicorn:
Reduce Opponent’s Heal from 53 is reduced to 34

Elf Archer
Cursed Ritual:
Damage from 62 is reduced to 21
Ne attribute Bonus Damage 14
Heal from 23 is reduced to 15
Reduce EP from 180 is reduced to 84

Orc Shaman
Now starts with 2 Energy Potion cards instead of one
Mental Harassment:
Will not be able to dismiss opponent’s Heroic or Relic cards
Duration from 3 is reduced to 1
Calmness is increased from 0 to 4
Brutal Mental Harassment:
Possible Duration from 3 is reduced to 1
Bonus Damage from 19 is increased to 59
Decrease Buff from 3 is increased to 6
Increase Buff from 1 is increased to 4
Royal Mental Harassment:
Possible Duration from 3 is reduced to 1
Defence from 19 is increased to 59
Decrease Buff from 1 is increased to 2
Increase Buff from 1 is increased to 2
Increase Play from 1 is increased to 2
Bonus EP from 80 is increased to 160
Divine Mental Harassment:
Possible Duration from 3 is reduced to 1
Heal from 19 is increased to 59
Decrease Buff from 2 is increased to 4
Increase Buff from 2 is increased to 6
Deadly Infection:
Reduce Opponent’s Heal from 75 is reduced to 45
Reduce Opponent’s Bonus Damage from 85 is reduced to 55
Cursed Thunderstorm:
Bonus Damage from 53 is reduced to 35
Reduce Opponent’s Heal from 60 is reduced to 38
Bonus EP from 75 is increased to 100
Reduce Opponent’s Defence from 15 is reduced to 10

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 11:37 am
by kylll
Thank You!!!
Not bad at first glance.
I go to test it :)

Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 3:36 pm
by Motylek
Thank you very much for caring about game and its healthy competitive environment with focus on balanced experience. :-)

Presented changes are making game better, but I still have some notes, which I would like to mention and I consider them very important and related to very basic concepts of game. I would say, even after those new balances, game is still not as healthy as it was before Orc Shaman expansion.

I want to share my opinion on 2 things, which I think, that are not balanced well on basic concept level:

1) There are 2 possible slots in game, which are affecting result of every round and in sum or rounds, result of the game. It is battlefield slot and buff slot. My personal opinion is that
- battlefield slot cards are generally meant to be core of duel and should be powerful, yet able to deal with easier way than buff slot cards
- buff slot cards are ment to be more supportive, but subtle and thus also being more resistant than battlefield slot cards
This should be reflected also in combos composed of those cards. Any combo, that is composed mostly or only from buff slot cards, should be decent, not overly powerful and most of all, supportive.

But if you look at Shamanic Curse combos, which are all from 2/3 composed of buff slot cards, it is clearly against this basic concept. Same problem I see with Lethal Infection combo (composed of Elven Agility and Parasite Infection). In my opinion, Shamanic Curse combos are still overpowered and they have to be either reduced in power even more, or need another battlefield slot card added to the combo to be at least half/half in number of buff and battlefield slot cards required to set combo. As Shamanic Curse combos are now, they are too easy to set and too difficult to break, while they are in contradition with basic concept, which I described above.


2) There are various types of cards and combos and if I omit supportive mechanics like extra play slot, extra buff slot, extra HP for limited duration, extra EP for limited duration, etc ... there are generally 8 combat relevant ways how to affect yours and opponents number of HP at the end of turn and that is generally goal of the game... To reduce opponents HP to 0, faster than he reduces yours.

Those 8 combat relevant ways/mechanics for cards and more importantly combos (Eldhelm duels are decided by combos, not by standalone cards, so this table is focused on combos) are:
a) increase your basic damage - small values, combos rarely increase basic damage
b) decrease opponents basic damage - small to medium values
c) increase your bonus damage - huge values, bonus damage combos change result of the round the most of all
d) decrease opponents bonus damage - medium to high values
e) increase your defense - medium to high values
f) decrease opponents defense - medium to high values
g) increase your regeneration - medium to high values
h) decrease opponents regeneration - huge values, if there is regeneration reduction combo, it is often huge and usually high enough, to reduce any regeneration opponent could have to 0

There are various combat relevant combos, but whenever there is regeneration reduction combo, it has quite high values and only other kind of combo, that could compete with it in values is bonus damage combo. All other combos have much lower values than regeneration reduction combos. It would be fine if it would affect all hero builds more or less on same level, but that is not the case. While bonus damage combos affect all kind of heroes, regeneration reduction combo affects Elf Keeper much more than anybody else.
In translation it means that Elf Keeper can hold his ground against unprepared opponent, whom he could face at example in Arena. But in any serious duel like tournament or guild war duel etc ... opponent has always special deck designed against Elf Keeper and due to huge values of regeneration reduction combos available to all race/class builds (or just plain inbuilt regeneration reduction in mythicals of Elf Archer, who does not even need combo to reduce regeneration to 0), there is no chance for Elf Keeper unless he fights another Elf Keeper. This is one of reasons, why I consider Elf Keeper to be the weakest class/race of all.
In my comparation table, which I mentioned in my previous post, there is no favorable matchup for Elf Keeper. But all other heroes have at least one favorable matchup. When I started playing this game years ago, I thought it keeps principle of rock, scissors, paper, where one class/race is favorable against other, but in same time disfavorable against another. Today with my experience, I can not find any favorable matchup for Elf Keeper. All fights feel like uphill battle, where only chance for Keeper is to outlast opponent, but that is very difficult.
I was also mentioning in my first post of this thread/topic (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6191#p7961) in paragraph 2), that I was hoping for balance changes of Unicorn Spirit, which is one of only 3 mythical cards out of 19 in total, which has only 1 attribute and which is clearly weaker in comparison with other relative mythical cards including its Orc Shaman equivalent Thunderstorm. This fact is another reason why I consider Elf Keeper to be the weakest race/class.


Otherwise, I like changes made to Mental Harassment and its combos. I am very curious to see its effects, especially its combos, where it is only one combo in game, that is able to decrease 6 buff slots. It should bring new strategically tactical options to the game. That is definitely interesting idea to try it out.
I will share more opinions after getting more experience in game play.

Best regards