thoughts on rouge

Discussions about the gameplay and critique regarding the current state of the game and it's features.

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Erik414
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thoughts on rouge

Post by Erik414 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:36 pm

Well after playing the game as long as I have and after creating a pretty good elf. I decided to take up the challenge of creating a rouge because many people complain about him. And now I see why. He's only a little good at a lot of things in this game that doesn't go very far. He might have a little better energy growth then a knight or an orc but that's about it. I will admit he has honor guidance and strategy excellence and some decent attacks but i haven't seen that he excels at any one thing. The elf had regeneration, the orc might, and the knight is better defensivly and a good fighter. So the rogue is supposed to have a good resistance correct, but he doesn't seem to have cards backing that up. The elf has plenty of healing cards to further play on his regeneration, the orc is an offensive killer playing on might and the knight has well balanced offense and defense cards. For ex. The knight gets might and resistance. His supreme justice is offensive and defencive. And has has a buff card that cuts def and healing. Plus every other class has decent healing. Even the orc. The elf of course. The knight has resurrection and other combos. The orc has boodlust +50 healing. What does the rouge have? Prayer. Doesn't compare. And archness is kind of redundant overkill most of his attacks already cut alot of def so -40 is a bit much. It should be more balanced like the knight buff card between def reduction and healing reduction. Resistance is useless with out cards to back it up. Because what decent attack doesn't cut def, so without def combos to back it up it's useless because unlike regeneration it only works when being attacked. Especially at a rate of 7:1 when leveling.

Now if i am wrong on any of this please those who have played rouge more than me feel free to correct me.

Now my thoughts for improvement. You could add more def catds but i think the best solution is too add a new stat that the rouge excels in. Dexterity, it could be damage reduction instead of defense. He already has a few cards for that including a combo that is -20. Maybe change some cards like dodge to reduce damage instead of defense. Also he could have some kind of card or combo called assassination. I don't know what it should do but sounds like something he should do. Maybe a combo for immobilize that clears enemy hero cards or reduction in hero cards duration. Not sure, just seems like an attack called assassinate would fit the rouge. Anyways enough of my ranting and rambling. Just getting my thoughts on the rouge out there and awaiting what others think.

Syndharos
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Re: thoughts on rouge

Post by Syndharos » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:01 am

A while ago I said the exact same thing. Being a bit good in everything makes it have a lot of things that he doesnt do well. So it lack focus and identity.
Also I suggested that he could get a boost in duration control, or ep control, since when I said that, there was no character realy focused on it, and my intention was to make Strategy and his special card become more usefull, but they didnt seems to agree with that. And today we see that they gave more duration control and EP control to the elf. Making it good ate EP control, Duration Control AND Regeneration.
SO the only thing left for rogues are damage reducion, since even resistance became useless to invest since the new mithycal buffs can reduce defence to negative values. And the mistify card and combo makes Might insignificant too, regeneration is the only worth stats to invest.

They already said they are working something about it, but with the last changes on elf I dont realy see what is left to Human Rogue to be good at, without changing the whole game.

So, right now anything that could make the rogue good at something would realy surprise me, and if whatever it is be focused for the ranged class identity, I just have to repeat:
The Ranged Elf will be a monster!

Erik414
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Re: thoughts on rouge

Post by Erik414 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:35 pm

Like I said I believe the best option for the rouge it to add a new stat for all the characters called dexterity, it could be damage reduction. It could be the rouges specialty. I would still leave it at 7:1 growth rate like resistance. And change around purchase skills to give one that furthers it just like any other stat. I say 7:1 just so it doesn't get over abused because at moment there is no way of cutting damage reduction. I wouldn't say resistance is useless though. For someone like the knight if it was 5:1 growth rate and complimented by other cards and combos like the knight has it would not be useless.

Essence Team
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Re: thoughts on rouge

Post by Essence Team » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:09 pm

All Rogue fans, please check and try the latest changes and give some feedback :)

Syndharos
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Re: thoughts on rouge

Post by Syndharos » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:16 am

I am ansious to give a try. Kind of in a hurry theses days, couldnt realy give time in game. But for what I could read you guys realy changed a lot of things,
I didnt liked the change in the atributes of Trap and Stealth :/, but I lost a bit of the passion I had for Rogue a while ago so, I cant get angry at it anymore, its just like..."well ok, whatever..."

But in a whole view, I guess you guys reached a way to make the Rogue a Jack in the Box, like he now does a bit of everything like before, but this is not in every card... now he have good cards for many things, this way he can do lots of things, but whoever try to do it all may be in trouble, so players can choose the kind of rogue they will be, make theyr mixes, focus on somethings... I say this based on what I read, now it looks like you can build diferent types of decks with Rogue, which makes it very versatile. I mean, will be hard to figure what are you fighting with when you get a Rogue opponent.

I am happy with that, the changes in the combos with the special card seems very good too.

Congratulations on the way you guys did things, things seems better, but not in a way that other ppl would leave theyr characters to make a rogue, just that it gets more pleasant for those who already had one.

Erik414
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Re: thoughts on rouge

Post by Erik414 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:00 pm

I am still trying out different things but i must say overall the changes to the rouge seem to be pretty good. Lots of different strategies and combos for different things. Very good.

Syndharos
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Re: thoughts on rouge

Post by Syndharos » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:33 pm

OK, things seems much better, now I could make a nice rogue deck with 56 cards good rotation, balanced control atack and defence, but then I once again stumbled on a issue that realy bothers me.
I was on a battle, and I had on table, Inner Strnght, Cloack and Honor Guidance, then it was vital for me to play Human Tatics and Strategy Excelence to make Kings Honor, and get a -2 duration on my opponents cards while extending my Honor Guidance and get a bonus damage. Problem is that the system did not make Kings Honor, since Cloack was on table it made combo with Human Tatics, and at this point I got realy frustrated, becouse the feeling is that you lost control of your moves, and something that you realy waited the right time to make was useless, I felt like I had just played random cards at that turn and nothing made sense on that move considering the situation.

So once again I beg you to plz let us have more control over this situation, becouse what others situations will I have to experiece before get used with all priorities that the system have with combos? And in this particular case the system made a rockie combo when there was chance for a intermediate combo wich goes against the nº11 here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38

I suggested in the other topic some ideas to let ppl be free to still play the game as it is. But I would realy be happy if I could choose it during the battle, but if I could at least choose priorities before battle would be amazing already.

Hope to have some news about it next time.

PS: System is pulling royal Wisdom instead of Master of Puppets too. ANother Roockie takin place of a Intermediate combo.

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Re: thoughts on rouge

Post by Essence Team » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:42 am

King's Honor is smaller level than King's Cloak, which explains why King's Cloak has activated. I will make a revision of the combo's levels, because they grew too much in number and sometimes the levels are not very optimized. About the other case - Royal Wisdom is smaller level than Master of Puppets and should not be activated in presence of Master of Puppets. If you are sure that this has happened, then there's some bug and we'll investigate it.

There are still differences in our opinion about the combo control/prioritize. The combo selection during the game will further complicate the game process from technical and gameplay point of view and that is almost not an option at this point. But the other option - making combo priorities before the battle is something we are currently arguing about. Here you can see the pros and cons about that issue which are quite simple :)
Current situation:
Pros: Luck involved for both you and your opponent (the presence of some luck can be intoxicating or frustrating according the the result and this makes the game more interesting)
Cons: Situations when you don't actually know what will be the net outcome of your actions.
Combo priorities:
Pros: Better tactical control over the battle from you.
Cons: Better tactical control over the battle from your opponent as well. No luck involved. During the battle you can have a situation when you want to activate the combo that you have placed on lower priority and you will have zero chance to do that in presence of the combo with higher priority.

Syndharos
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Re: thoughts on rouge

Post by Syndharos » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:10 pm

AH ok. I got confused becouse in catalog Kings Honor is intermediate, and Kings Cloack is roockie. Didnt knew it had changed.

And about leting ppl chose priority, I guess that let the player count on luck, leaveing as it is as an option, gives another pro to set priority feature.
And the fact of having zero chance over playng a higher combo in face of a weaker during the battle you can have a situation when you want to activate the combo that you have placed on lower priority and you will have zero chance to do that in presence of the combo with higher priority will leave the player with nothing to blame than his choice and the conscience that he can do better next time, avoiding the frustration to see a situation that he know that his skills/strategy/patience/effort over the opponent were superior, but the system fucked him.
Also it doesnt exclude the luck efect, since we never know what card we will draw. Or what were the priorities your opponent has set.
I just believe that once the card is in your hand, its up to you to make good use on it... not luck anymore.If so, its like playing cards in blind/randomly.

I think that another Pro would be that you will have a higher number of possible deck builds, making each player become more and more unique in his play style.

Thank you for the attention once again.

Erik414
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Re: thoughts on rouge

Post by Erik414 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:57 am

I have never had a problem with combo order till just now. I always knew which combos superseded other combos and made it work just fine. But in a battle against the AI with my rouge i had wisdom out for master of puppets and went for an attack with royal prayer and royal wisdom activated instead, royal prayer should take priority over royal wisdom. I could see the usefulness of priorities that we pick. But I also see how that could be complicated.

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