Are Orcs really that weak?

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1mb4k4
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Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by 1mb4k4 » Thu May 22, 2014 1:53 pm

Recent feedback from players suggest that Orcs are weak...
I would really like to hear what you guys think...

Motylek
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Re: Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by Motylek » Sat May 24, 2014 9:34 am

Hello, I do not have direct experience of playing Orc race personally, but let me think about it. I do not know if Orcs are strong, average or weak, but I think, that IF Orcs are WEAK, it is not their fault. Orcs are supposed to be the most damage dealing characters, which I believe they are. So what is the problem? Every other race here has "something" to even disadvantage of making less damage.What that "something" is, are supporting abilities other than direct damage, but problem is that those supporting abilities are not just supporting, but they are game deciding. While Orcs are not "great thinkers" and they just do direct damage.

So I see problem not in Orcs, but in game deciding supportive abilities of others. At example let me name my personally experienced (from wrong side of table) game over supporting cards. First is Honor Guidance (In fact, if I am aware, this thread partially developed from discussion related to Honor Guidance and minimum cards in deck.), second is Strategy Excellence and third the most affecting is Immobilize IV. There are more, I would like to mention, but for sake of simplicity, I will focus on those 3.
1) Honor Guidance is game over, because you are not going to win by playing random cards from random deck. You are carefully nurturing your constructed deck which is shaped to your chosen strategy. Not being able to use it is end of the road. I would suggest to redesign Honor Guidance to at example: "Opponent can draw up to 2 cards from his deck, rest of cards up to his maximum card draw limit can be drawn only from random deck". Currently my card draw limit is 5 and when I play Elven Agility, it is 7 cards per turn so being able to draw only 2 from my deck is still terrible limitation, but it is not so game over like it is now.
2) Strategy Excellence is only card in game, which is able to use skill bonus "increase your card duration" and "decrease opponents card duration" in same time. All other card duration manipulating cards can use only increase yours or decrease opponents duration limit, but not both in same time by one card. (Other races, classes can do it only by making multiple cards combo, but due to limited number of card play slots-by default only 2 card slots per turn-it means that nothing else will be played and even you need multiple turns to set that combo) So result is, that ranged class will simply destroy all your long duration cards and increase duration of his own cards just by one card and this is almost as terrible effect as Honor Guidance, because game is not won by 2 cards being played by turn, but from making combos of multiple cards over multiple turns. I would suggest to redesign card to be able to use only one of skill bonuses, but not both.
3) Immobilize IV is (depending on your amount of energy) your opponent will not play anything for duration of one turn. If it is properly timed in critical moment, it is again one card game over supporting ability. I would suggest to make special card with different effect. All other special cards are related to dealing damage directly or indirectly (adding bonus damage, adding extra hit points, increasing resistance and regeneration) but Immobilize is only card which is not related to dealing damage, but it directly affect capability of playing cards at all.

Now I noticed that all cards are mentioned are cards which are related to significant game impact all alone. No need to play combo to make that effect, just play them alone plus some other card which will complete or strengthen your combo.

I would suggest one thing to do. Those who are saying that Orcs are weak, please look at your career history or write it from memory what is race, class character which is causing you the most difficulties to keep pace with. My guess is Human or Ranged characters are the most difficult for Orcs and not just for them. (All 3 cards I mentioned above belongs either to Human or Ranged character)

To sum it up, I do not think, that Orcs are weak, just other characters have too strong supporting abilities, which are often game deciding factor. I would focus on making supportive abilities only supporting, not game deciding.

So, that is my opinion, but I would like to encourage others to also say their opinions and contribute to discussion.
Motylek

Tremblor
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Re: Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by Tremblor » Thu May 29, 2014 5:09 pm

I've only played as an orc (currently 78), and I would not say they are weak, per se -- only limited in their deck construction/possibilities. I've tried larger decks that try to use a variety of combos, but find the only way to beat heroes with similar skill levels is to limit my deck to just the cards that help me get out my Boss of the Orcs combo. Maybe that's the case with all classes. As I mentioned in another post, I would love to be able play with Roar successfully. The class that I've had the most difficulty with is 1) Elf Keeper. And 2) Rogues. But that is mostly based on two specific players who have good skills and play smart.

betascream
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Re: Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by betascream » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:38 am

up

Skill Hunter
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Re: Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by Skill Hunter » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:22 pm

Hi
Ok i have heard that orcs are weak but i really heard that from only one player each time i won he keep saying
That orcs are weak and rogues are OP and why does he 90 lvl orc get to loss to me when i was 76 rogue
The truth is he got a lvl 50 skills and put so many cards with 30 might so his hp is like 250 thats why he keep lossing all the time
I fight against tremblor he is a great fighter and a powerful orc
Now my lvl is 86 and him is 83 and still i beat him one time and he beat me the other
So we got the same power he is excllant with his orc so am i with my rogue
If any one think orcs is a weak race just try to fight with davier he got 95 orc and he is very strong
I beat lvl 90 orc and lvl 93 orc with ease but 4 orcs are hard to beat and its not there lvl one of them are lvl 70 and the other who just beat me was 79
The true thing that some players are just dont know how to play with there char
If you dont like to play with your char and dont understand it then just try another

kaiser
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Re: Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by kaiser » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:25 am

Imao Orcs are not weak, if we talk just about the way to spend the stats points. But if we talk about skills they are weaker class. I cannot understand how I could defeat a elf keeper when they have the skill to reduce might and they can recover hp faster than the hits that an orc could do. For example an elf keeper level 90 just talking about the skills could reduce might in 10, reduce opponent heal in 16, increase their own might in 16 and heal 20 points with both skills they have available; and in counterpart the Orc could deal 26 might, 10 heal, and reduce heal in 14. The difference will be :

Keeper :
Might 16
heal 6

Orc:
Might 16
Heal -6

Basically if we apply the heal after the turn well be

Keeper:
Might 16
Heal 0

Orc:
Might 10
Heal -6

HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE THAN ELF KEEPER DOES MORE DAMAGE COMPARED WITH AN ORC that suppose to be the strongest race by excellence?

Even with the random deck cannot win vs the elf keeper in the case both player ran out of cards.
I never examine the other classes but that's not fair than an elf keeper does more damage than a orc. The only class OP imao is the keeper.

So if we talk about the Orc is weak or not I could say it is weak in high levels.

Skill Hunter
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Re: Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by Skill Hunter » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:46 am

Well kaiser actually daiver is 95 orc and trust me he is far away from weak so does tremblor and he is 83 but
Every char is weak against a high lvl keeper
Its because there regeneration really
5/1 that is very hard to beat and with getting gold so easyly from the beast which make them max there skills
More faster than the others but still there hp is very low even for high lvl keeper 6/5 while orcs got 4/5so in high lvl while orcs hp is 600 keepers wont reach 350 i think
but still you just talked about skills ok how about the cards ??
They got that skill to reduce might because they got no buff card like breaking blow which -30 of bonus attack
By the way keepers maybe wont die so easyly but still they dont got to much attacks!!
I mean they got the royal shadow and the brutal hurricane thats there best attacking combos
While the orcs got alot of attacking card but
I think they need is some duration attack to use all these combos which increases might but dont got any attacks in it but still if they got an attack with there combos and they got shatterd strike and breaking blow to stop there opponent might and blood festival to increase there hp they would be unstoppable
So i still think its balanced

Motylek
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Re: Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by Motylek » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:29 pm

Hello Kaiser,

Your calculations are definitely wrong and they rather look like distorted on purpose or from mistake. You picked only few skills by ignoring rest. I looked at skills of Orc Warrior and Elf Keeper and I come to this ... (Only bonuses from skills are evaluated)

Orc Elf Keeper
HP 120 80
Mig 26 16
Def 10 0
Reg 11 20
-Mig 0 -10
-Def -10 -10
-Reg -14 -16

Orcs do not have might reducing skill, but Elf Keepers do not have Resistance skill which is doing similar purpose. Now lets make calculations similar like you did ...

Orc Elf
16 16 own Might - opponents Might reduction
0 -10 own Resistance - opponents Resistance reduction
-5 6 own Regeneration - opponents Regeneration reduction
11 12 summed score

Or if you want it similar way you counted it, it is:
attack 16:16
summed defense (resistance + regeneration together) -5:-4

Also do not forget Bonus HP 120:80

From my calculations fighting capabilities of Orc and Elf Keeper are equal with Orcs having one third bonus lives more. It is no way showing any disadvantage to Orc and your omit of resistance (no matter if it was on purpose or by mistake) made your statistics distorted.

Absolute comparison of pure Might 26:16 is also not showing that Orc is somehow dealing too little damage. 16 damage for Elf is quite accurate. If somebody knows how to heal, he also knows what are sensitive points and which should be avoided from being hurt, thus he knows how to hurt. Orc can deal 26 damage because he has brute strength. Elf does not have brute strength, but he knows sensitive points which really hurt, when they are hit.

Also additionally you can think about what Skill Hunter said, but this is about whole picture. I just kept focusing on main point of your argument and that is pure skill bonus. Resistance and Regeneration are working very similar way and you can not include regeneration into counting and leave resistance out of it if you want to be fair.

Best regards
Motylek

kaiser
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Re: Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by kaiser » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:26 am

So according too both Skill and you Molytek, to defeat a keeper both heroes in level 90 with all skills completed well be change roles?

Orc should be waiting until their ran out of cards? Because let me remind you both that orcs just have a few combos that are available for stock them at the field but elf keepers have great abilities to reduce opponents cards time remaining.

So as far as I could notice a good orc deck high level will be set cards for reduce opponent card durations or break important enemies combos with dispels until they play just random cards. That could have a good sense, because that's why orcs are powerful at the first levels.

Great good new, but I think will not the regular prototype of an Orc Warrior should be :|

Motylek
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Re: Are Orcs really that weak?

Post by Motylek » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:36 am

Hello, Kaiser,

It seems to me, that you are switching theme from "skill focus" to "overall fighting strategy" comparison between Orc Warrior and Elf Keeper. Before we will continue on this new theme, could you please at least admit, that your statistics and calculations about skills were wrong?

You were wrong in ignoring effect of Resistance and also you overlooked, that Orc Warrior has Regeneration skill on level 90 at 11 instead of 10.

It is always suitable to get to some point in discussion before changing theme. Otherwise people can be discussing over and over all day long and they will not get to any point or conclusion ever.

Also it seems to me that you are somehow very narrowly focused on comparison between Orc Warrior and Elf Keeper. Strength of hero is not defined on comparison between certain class/race combination, but on comparison of them all together. If they are all more or less balanced or if simply one class/race is towering high above all of them.

Best regards
Motylek

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