Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Discussions about the gameplay and critique regarding the current state of the game and it's features.

Moderator: Essence Team

1mb4k4
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:26 am
In-game user name: 1mb4k4

Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by 1mb4k4 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:17 pm

Update: Changes are APPLIED!

Dear Players, we would like to inform you that there will be changes in the multiplayer game modes known as "ranking" and "challenge" in the next few days.

The challenge mode is not really popular and the ranking mode is some sort of one sided - there is usually a sure winner in the fights. The player who looses often drops/disconnects, even before the game actually starts (as soon as he sees his opponent). Keeping the ranking this way makes no sense and also overlaps with the challenge mode.

We are really concerned about the players experience and we will address the above issues (and many other with the current modes) by doing the following changes:
1) The challenge mode will reward the players with score points - the same as the ranking mode did. This way the players will be able to select the most appropriate deck against the opponent they are facing.
2) The players in challenge mode will receive the same amount of gold and experience as they did in ranking.
3) The ranking mode will be removed as it is. It will be replaced by a so called "arena" mode. This mode will continue selecting players for matches the same way, but the games will be played with a special random decks. Meaning, NO collector decks will be used (only for this mode)! The arena mode will continue to reward players with score points the same way the ranking did.
3) The ranking of the player will be calculated from both multiplayer modes together. The players will receive/loose score points in matches. Drops will add and exponentially growing penalty to the score.

We are accepting comments regarding these (and any other) changes as usual. There already a topic regarding this change in the forum. We highly encourage a forum discussion regarding the subject instead of feedback messages!
Last edited by 1mb4k4 on Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by Motylek » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:37 pm

Hello, please let me say my opinion.
I very much welcome mode with just random decks instead of collector decks. It sounds like great fun and nice change from standard daily duels.

However I would not suggest to calculate score from Arena and challenges together to decide standing in ladder, unless there will be done additional actions.
Please let me explain why. There are some players in Eldhelm, who have multiple accounts. While in Ranking game and Arena mode, player never knows who will be his opponent, it is very easy to manipulate result via challenges. At example examine Player "Royal Angel", his character "Royal Angel" Elf Archer level 35. When he was level 1, he challenged his another account hero Saenougharaus character level 99 and won challenged duel. I watched him doing it with at least 3 other accounts when he is gaining experience very quickly by challenging his other 99 level character by newly created one. I know about at least 5 accounts of that player, but I would bet he could have even more accounts. If score would be composed by results from Arena and Challenge duels, then score would be very easy to manipulate with. Right now, challenged duel has no impact on score and I think it should stay like that. At least until there will be some tool to prevent such manipulation with result.

I think, score should always be derived from duels which are randomly assigned or where are consecutive series of duels with various opponents (like in tournament). In both cases, manipulation with result will not be so easily done.

1mb4k4
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:26 am
In-game user name: 1mb4k4

Re: Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by 1mb4k4 » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:19 pm

Yes, you right! There should be improvements to prevent such actions. I am planning implement some new with the launch of this update.

On the other side the challenge is really not attractive unless it affects the ranking.

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by Motylek » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:40 pm

Are you sure, that making challenges ranked will also make it significantly more popular? Not everybody cares about ranking. What if cause of popularity or lack of it lies elsewhere? Honestly, I will not participate in more challenge duels than currently after change. (I participate very very rarely anyway.) In fact challenges are alittle annoying for me. I can ignore ranking game and it forces no reaction from me, but for challenge, I have to all the time respond, "thank you, I am not interested". Plus I have also enough of being called names just because of not accepting challenge. Could you imagine how it was sometimes hard for Bruce Lee to just have walk on street when people were stopping him and asking for sparring or simply challenging him? "Hey you, I want to fight with you!" I would even like possibility in settings to make hero "unchallengeable". I do not need to prove anybody or to myself how good I am. I simply know my current status and do not need to convince others about it. If somebody insists on challenging me, I tell him to meet me at tournament. I participate on tournaments regularly, if I have time.

What if there could be tried different approach? Eldhelm is fantasy game with RPG features. Fantasy is closely inspired by medieval. How was in medieval times decided which knight is the most able one? It was not by picking as many fights as possible and winning them, this is way for barroom brawler. For more noble knights, there were tournaments and winners of tournaments gained glory. Not because of fighting with everybody who challenged them on any place they were challenged, but because of winning at certain prestigious events. I find this more flavorful approach. I have some idea, which is just first try, not thought out too much so it probably needs more polishing to even think about it, but it maybe could serve as an inspiration...

There could be several ranking tiers (at example 5) and players could challenge anybody, but ranked will be only challenge duel between players in same tier. (XP and gold will be given always) Players with higher tier will be always placed higher in ranking ladder than players with lower tier, no matter if player in lower tier would win even 5 times more duels than player in higher tier. Higher tier can be gained only by participating in tournament and winning it in his level range category or depending on number of participants being 2nd or even 3rd. Players in same tier will then fight for his ranking within tier by challenges or special arena for selected tier and level range.

What do you think about it? I know it is very different approach from current one and maybe not so good from game perspective, but I find it more flavorful.
BTW, that reminds me, could there be in hero statistics number of tournament 1st, 2nd and 3rd places? Currently there is only number of won and total tournament duels, but this is not what tournaments are held for, right? :-) And maybe also some achievements for certain number of tournament 1st places?

1mb4k4
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:26 am
In-game user name: 1mb4k4

Re: Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by 1mb4k4 » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:01 pm

Hi, thank your for your comprehensive replies!

You are right! The constant request for challenges are annoying. That's why there will be changes in this aspect also. There will be something like lobby where only interested in playing will go.

Regarding the current ranking mode and the future arena modes there is an option under the settings->notifications where you can turn of all ranking notifications.

There are players who like pvp and others who don't. Some like quick fights others startegic, like chess. We are aimed at having something for everybody!
Yes, some tournament statistics and achievements will be nice. We are looking towards implementing them :)
Thanks!

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by Motylek » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:23 am

Hello,

Thank you Andrey for posting this thread before applying changes and being open for discussion. It is great trait for everybody who is creating something, no matter if it is programming, inventing or flowers arranging.

However I would like to ask if it would be possible to return back "Ladder" button in Tournament section. (It was replaced with "Statistics" button.) It contained invaluable information for anybody who wanted to prepare for tournament and his possible opponents.
I guess it was done for nicer appearance of interface, but I would not mind if there would be both buttons or if tournament statistics would be in top area menu "Ranking". It could at example replace "By avatars" button. Btw, I am wondering what is that "By Avatars" button showing. Ranking by avatars sounds strange and also I could not discover its function so if it is unintuitive, it is probably not needed anyway. :-) But maybe you will prove me wrong.

Thank you for doing so great job :-)
Motylek

1mb4k4
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:26 am
In-game user name: 1mb4k4

Re: Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by 1mb4k4 » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:25 pm

Hi, the ladder button has moved on top of the tournament poster!
So to access the ladder press on the poster :) Please, note that you should have a hero selected.

By avatars is a showcase of the most customized heroes.
It will be updated most likely as it is not very clear as it is.

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by Motylek » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:08 pm

Thank you for advice, I probably did not have selected hero, but then when I did, all is working perfectly. Thank you.

I tried 3 arena duels and it is as I expected and wrote earlier. It is refreshing change from usual fights and I think, it will find its fans.

All recent changes were made for improving ranking system and making it more attractive, right? I think you really made steps in good direction, but I still think, it is not "it" yet. At example I won in arena with player from TOP 100, who had rating 982. I have good dueling history ... but I also had rating 32. I was favored in match and after win, I received +5 points to score. Well, I just won with player from TOP 100 who has more than 900 points of score more than me and yet, only because I was favored by AI, I received just +5 points to rating? If I will want to fight for top score, honestly, it will take me ages to get to top 100. But if I would made streak of lost or even dropped games on purpose and thus get disfavored in followed duels (No, I do not want to do this.), I would be climbing in rating at double speed, only my win ratio would be hurt. I think, that more fair changes of rating would be to count it based on difference in actual ratings of both players instead of "favor". Favor is still good to calculate experience and gold rewards, but score rating should be rather not based on favor.

1mb4k4
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:26 am
In-game user name: 1mb4k4

Re: Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by 1mb4k4 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:00 am

Let me explain about the favor.

It is calculated based on the score in the ranking but not completely. It also takes the wins and the losses into account. So the more you play the more precise it will be in its guess.
Being higher in ranking at the moment does not mean you are stronger than all opponents in he ranking below you.

In your case you won points, but please note that your opponent most likely lost some of his.

The good thing about this system is it is fair.
It is tolerant to casual losses. It always happen that you can loose for some reason against a weaker opponent. Even a connection problem.
It does not matter whether play good or bad (meaning whether you win or loose more).
It also is fair when you play more than most the other players.
If you play less and win all the time you will of course again rank well.
Unless you loose all the time and you play a lot you will still rank well.
Playing a lot is factor and it should be as someone invests his time, which is very valuable to us!
It allows the good players to go really high but not be unreachable.

We will continue to monitor how it goes and update if necessary :)

Motylek
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:11 pm
In-game user name:

Re: Discussion - Major changes regarding multiplayer modes!

Post by Motylek » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:49 pm

Please let me explain better what I mean.
1mb4k4 wrote:Let me explain about the favor.

It is calculated based on the score in the ranking but not completely. It also takes the wins and the losses into account. So the more you play the more precise it will be in its guess.
Being higher in ranking at the moment does not mean you are stronger than all opponents in he ranking below you.
I think, there is no problem in guessing who is stronger, algorithm is very precise in guessing who is more "favorable" to win.
But if somebody at certain position on rating table (especially if he is in top 100) is not with some probability stronger than anybody else below him (unless in rating below will be some "rising star") then this rating system does not respond much to definition of rating. Rating should represent relative strengths of players by definition, right?
1mb4k4 wrote:In your case you won points, but please note that your opponent most likely lost some of his.
No, he did not lose any point for losing with me, but this is not problem. I will explain what is problem alittle lower.
1mb4k4 wrote:The good thing about this system is it is fair.
It is tolerant to casual losses. It always happen that you can loose for some reason against a weaker opponent. Even a connection problem.
It does not matter whether play good or bad (meaning whether you win or loose more).
It also is fair when you play more than most the other players.
If you play less and win all the time you will of course again rank well.
Unless you loose all the time and you play a lot you will still rank well.
Playing a lot is factor and it should be as someone invests his time, which is very valuable to us!
It allows the good players to go really high but not be unreachable.

We will continue to monitor how it goes and update if necessary :)
Problem of current rating is that it is literally putting disadvantage on "rising stars". Being favored means that player will get less score points because he is expected to win. Imagine player who is winning all his duels from beginning and never loses and compare him with player who will lose his first 50 duels on purpose but then he will win all consecutive duels. Who do you think will get faster to rating 1000?

I have especially objections to "If you play less and win all the time you will of course again rank well.". In all my duels since beginning, I was winning quite often and game is thus favoring me. So far, I was always favored except one time, when I was on equal in favor with my opponent. What does it mean is that I am all the time favored, but virtually penalized with less score reward even that I have less than 50 points of score in total and my opponents who are sometimes also from top 100 and have 1000+ score points in total are disfavored, so when I win with them, I get less score points than when they win with me. It is creating barrier for any good player who is actually better than most of players, but to get appropriate score rating, it will take him much longer time than to rest of players. So in fact, current system is loading handicap on good beginning players. The better you are, the harder it will be.
It corresponds with what you mention "Unless you loose all the time and you play a lot you will still rank well.". I would say even too well.
I do not agree too much with "It allows the good players to go really high but not be unreachable." If you are good player who is beginning his journey, top player seems to be almost unreachable. Top players are more easily reachable by "better than average, but worse than the best" players.

If score changes would be more based on difference in rating, then "rising star" would get faster to place it belongs and then rating would also function much better, but that is just my subjective opinion. :-)

Please, let me now post some actual numbers which led me to write original post.
I won arena duel with player X from top 100 who had rating 982. I was favored in match and my rating at that time was 32. I won +5 score points, opponent lost 0 score points.
That player X then won another arena duel with player Y from top 100. Player X had still rating 982, player Y had rating 1060. Player X was disfavored and won +9 score points, player Y lost -4 score points.
Now, intuitive way of how rating system works should be that players with similar rating should get some amount of plus or minus points when they win or lose. If there is very big difference in rating, then if player with significantly lower rating wins, he should get more points than normally and if player with significantly higher rating wins, he should get less points than normally. This is how rating systems normally work. But here it is not really true in some cases, because since rising stars are always favored, then if they win, they always get less score points like if they would be player with significantly higher rating, but in fact they have at example almost 1000 score points less than their opponent. This system rather give advantage to those, who keep their win/lose ratio lower.

At example the easiest it would be for player who lose some games at beginning on purpose, then win some games with somebody strong to get lots of score points (rising in rating system at double speed in comparison with "all wins" player), then again lose some duels on purpose with somebody who is "favored" and lose only marginal or even no score points and then again win some duels ... This system is making "milking cows" from players with high win/lose ratio and this is what I consider to be problem. Also those players if they are beginning have it even more harder to get to proper place in rating ladder, where they actually belong.

I am sorry for writing such long post, but I wanted to explain better what I meant, as I was afraid, I was not clear enough in first post.

Best regards
Motylek

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: demopayday and 1 guest