What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

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Waynek the Strongest
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What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Waynek the Strongest » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:01 pm

Hey guys,
I just wanted to get your opinion about this idea I had:
Adding a calm attribute to dispell, preventing it from being played first turn or first two turns.
The reasons that led me to that proposal are several
First, a lot of Orc vs Orc or Orc vs Knight fight from lvl 60 to -as far as I have been now- lvl 80, but I was told it was the same for some higher level player, are solved even before the game in itself starts, for the one who starts the game can immediately use a dispel toughness combo, dealing decent damage, but more annoying, preventing enemy from using any equipment. Which basically means:
No way of replying: you can't equip a toughness, you can't use the combo
No way of defending: Defensive mythic equipments and toughness can't be played
If repeated twice or three times (which is often the case around my level), leads to a certain death after a 6 turn uncapability to withstand your opponent.


What would calmness attribute brings? What abuses would it prevent?
First, it would prevent this game, supposed to be a strategic one, to be set by a 1/2 chance to win and same to lose, which is just 100% luck and therefore it s stupid. Calmness would bring a chance to react to this combo
Second, the interest of the card would not be lost, and it would be reoriented towards its primary goal: remove long-lasting cards and combo.
Third, with a 3 or 4 calmness attribute, it would still be available when heavy combos or Heroic cards arrive.

The current problem of Dispell is that it's not use as a defense mecanism, but as an offensive paralysis mecanism, which is counterless and frustrating to play against, just like honor guidance used to be a couple months ago.



Another possible solution would be to reduce the number of equipments it removes, but in my opinion it wouldn't be so good, as mythic equipment would in their turn be counterless if placed first in the list.


Well, I hope I had myself understood, and I'm waiting for your feedbacks/opinions.

See you in game

Motylek
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Re: What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Motylek » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:18 pm

Hello,

First of all, this problem is non-existent at level 80 and above, when hero can train 3rd level of Armory, which means 6th buff slot. If players above level 80 has problem with this, it is problem of their wrong character development, not problem of game itself. Imagine Orc who would put all skill points into regeneration and nothing else. Such Orc would have no moral right to complain about game mechanics, don't you agree?

Second, if problem is only for duels between Orc vs. Orc and Orc vs. Knight, it means melee class, which only one can deal damage with this combo (other classes either reduce Energy or get Resistance), why should be problem in Dispell itself? Is not problem in other component of combo? Preventing Dispell from being used in early turns will bring back situation before calmness itself was presented as attribute. Preventing Dispell would mean, that players will setup position to win in 3rd round and other player could not do anything about it. Putting calmness on Dispell will almost nullify calmness on cards, which already have calmness for being too strong.

I was having some duels between ranged classes, where both participands were using Dispell combo and I can tell from personal experience, I can win even when opponent starts with Dispell combo in duel of ranged classes. But I can not win against melee class, because it is dealing base damage with combo plus bonus damage from their stats and skills.

For Caster class, this combo is absolute must have to have chance to win and it will neither do damage to opponent like Melee class nor decrease opponents Energy like Ranged class.

As I see it, problem is existing only for heroes below level 80 who are not Caster class and players of Ranged class can withstand it, despite being at some disadvantage. So I would definitelly suggest other solution than putting calmness on Dispell. Either everything should be kept as it is, because problem will solve itself with 6th buff slot, or if something should be done, then it should be done with other part of combo than Dispell. My personal favorit would be Charge, because other classes does not have as big problem with it, or if things should be ballanced for all, then it should be Toughness as its calmness 3 would have the least impact on game. But I would personally not do any change. Like I wrote above, it is only temporary problem for heroes below level 80.

Best regards
Motylek

Waynek the Strongest
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Re: What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Waynek the Strongest » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:06 am

I feel like I made one mistake thinking dispell combo removed 6 buff-slots (which would have meant the problem was persisting above level 80). If not, then the problem mustn't be dispell in itself. On the other hand, when you reach level 80 you are supposed to have more HP then when you are 70, resulting in your opponent being unable to burst you down. But that's not the point.
I am quite unexperienced of very high level fight (80+) for I ve never been so far myself. So if you say it is unnecessary for level 80+, I have to trust you.
Still it is totally gamebreaking for melee lvl 60-80. It does give them a more or less free win against Elf Archer as well (the latter being squishy and having no moral blow due to the combo to contest enemy might). Which means there is still a problem that need to be sorted out (lvl 60-80 is the range of level you get in upon finishing the quest, and exping to level 80 is long and fastidious).

Another suggestion would be to replace charge by another melee epic card that does not deal damage. Indeed the problem mainly affect melee class, due to this combo that both deals damages and proc their might, and offer that paralysis that prevents any reaction, which lead into 6 free damages turns.

The problem is that there is no such card currently implemented, the only common melee card being charge and resistance.

Besides, it would lead to an overall nerf of melee class, as they aren't stronger than other classes at higher level, that dispell damaging combo is one of their strength. And it would also mean a need to create another epic card for ranged and caster to be balanced (currently every class has two).

Here is my proposal for such a card for melee:
Casters get huge defense from that combo
Ranged classes gets big damage and EP debuff
So I would propose a card that heals a decent amount and does something else with the combo, such as removing more cards than normal dispell combo (currently removes 3 cards), or reducing enemy damage (by 8 on the normal card, by 16 with the combo) or something oriented toward utility.


Thank you for your quick and developped answer Motykek

Aleatory
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Re: What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Aleatory » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:43 pm

I don't think it is game breaking. I have won games against players who use this strategy.

If one is an Orc Warrior, Human Rogue, or Elf Keeper they can play 2 of their "reduce opponents buff area" cards and remove the ability to play the combo that next turn. Obviously, this becomes unavailable at higher levels when 5 or 6 buff slots are available, but then other strategies can be employed - reduce bonus damage or reduce damage cards, as the combo only does 13 base damage.
~Aleatory

Waynek the Strongest
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Re: What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Waynek the Strongest » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:20 pm

I did not say it was gamebreaking for Rogue and Keeper fights against orc (both being able to temporize for long enough to survive this, then orc can't do anything)
Your strategy does work. But it involves having twice the right card at the right moment, and if you don't, you've lost the game (Talking about orc particularly since Rogue and Keeper are not to be fought with such a strategy). Well, that's pretty much the same situation as it was for Honor Guidance a couple month ago.
If you had dispell, it was useless, or at least not too strong. But if you did not have a dispell when the combo was released, it was game over, with a couple strategy excellence, the enemy would ruin your card while buffing his long enough to kill you.

So yes that's what I mean. There are ways to counter it. But when these ways involves being lucky when you first draw card (considering you have 3* the 3 mythic of your class in your deck, + 3 dispell (kind of a must have)+ 2-3toughness and 3* the card that combo with the two latter, if you had something like 6other card for some combo or anything, and the three marauding to counter this, the probability to have two marauding in your hand is very low. Let's say it's 10% ( I made no calculation but I estimate it is a high approximation as it is certainly lower). Well, ok, then you ll lose 90% of your games.


You talked about reducing damage. It is rarely enough (your equipment are unavailable, mystify remains, but it gets dispelled. And once more, you have very low guarantee to have mystify everytime you need it

And even if it happens that you have mystify and that you survive this 6 turn paralysis, you will still be, let s say, 50 to 100HP, against an enemy that is still full health. You will be way too late to get back into the game (one strong offensive combo like Orcish war or Heroic Orc+ War drums+ the third card of the combo I can't recall the name and you are dead)

Other solution would be to have a bigger HP pool
Which lead to another problem: you won't be able to win to a character with higher stats and lower HP in arena.

Aleatory
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Re: What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Aleatory » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:24 pm

I wasn't meaning Bonus Damage, I was talking about pure damage. The Orc warrior has [Groin Kick] and [Tactical Retreat], both which "reduce opponents damage" and would negate any damage done by a dispel combo. (obviously this could be counter by a duration card that does damage, but that would also require the attacker to add more cards to their deck).

And if we're talking about probability of first 10 cards, even with a 24+ card deck as you are explaining, there is a pretty good chance (about 25% at 24 cards) the attacker on the first round won't get all three cards required to pull off the dispel combo.

Also, the probability of having 2 [Maruading] on the second turn (the turn you would need to cause the Attacker to not be able to play the dispel combo on the next turn) is about 30% for a 24-card deck.

If a player is solely relying on going first to win the game then their deck may be abnormally small, but then they will probably lose unless they actually go first or the other player has no strategy. Part of PvP is figuring out what strategies work best for your Race/Class against which Race/Class you are facing. You could create a deck that is solely for Melee vs. Melee and test out a few different strategies.
~Aleatory

Waynek the Strongest
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Re: What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Waynek the Strongest » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:58 am

[Tactical Retreat] and [Groin Kick] are respectively -8 and -7 opponent damage, which once more means two card to counter a single enemy strategy. And that's not counting a possible counter from your enemy by just using some 2-turn-lasting cards to counter (my orc deck used to be:
3*3mythic
3*3 dispell combo card
3* the card that last two turns and deals 11damages and heal 4
3*card that deal 20 damages and damage you for 5 damages

Which is 24 cards indeed, and includes a way to counter damage reduction)

Which is the situation you describe. And if it leads to a sure win 75% of times (according to your 25% chance not to have the combo when the game starts), well, it must be kind of too strong a strategy (because counterplay is very low).
I found a way to counter it, which is playing a tankier orc (around 350HP, they won't have enough to kill you, and their deck will run out before your health does so, and this gameplay that relies more on combos works quite well against any class). Now my problem is that I cannot do anything in arena where might is much more efficient than HP

Maybe am I too greedy, and maybe it's a normal balance that one can't be both a strong duelist and a strong arena player, not at this level at least.

Well, if I am the only one who find this gamebreaking for this range of level, then I must be wrong.

Motylek
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Re: What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Motylek » Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:04 pm

You are not only one who finds it unbalanced, but like I wrote in my previous post, if will fortunately solve itself on higher levels.

However, I think that this combo should have been designed differently. It is supposed to be used for defense, not for offense. All classes gets same result with cleaning table and up to 5 buff slots, but different effects between classes for rest of combo should have been also defensive.
- Casters get resistance shield, which is ok, it suits defensive nature of Caster class.
- Rangers get bonus damage and decrease significantly opponents EP. While decreasing opponents EP could be counted as defensive, getting bonus damage is not and also Rangers are only class, which get 2 additional bonuses unlike Casters and Melee fighters. I think, Rangers should have only opponents EP decrease as their class bonus.
- Melee figters have base damage as their class advantage. For them could be made exception, because their defense is offense, so they should get bonus damage instead of base damage as their class advantage.

Those changes would of course require changing components of combos and combos thmselves, but this is how I see it being more fair. However, this is idea, which I am not sure it is worth to procced with, because it is solving problem, that is existing only during certain part of heroes level range.

Best regards
Motylek

Waynek the Strongest
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Re: What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Waynek the Strongest » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:05 pm

Defense bonus Keepers get from it is quite damn high though, totally impossible to deal them anything. But that's not the point indeed

I must say I appreciate your solution that would be rebuilding the thing into a real defense oriented combo, for every class, which would be:
Stay as it is for Casters
Rework ranged for them to have a single bonus - decreasing EP indeed sounds good (though quite useless against Keeper)
And change Melee one for bonus -not flat- damage

It sounds great to me. I'm waiting for Andrey to post something though, and if he disagrees, I guess I'll just afk farm till lvl 80, not showing my face in PvP.

Thank you both for your replies

Aleatory
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Re: What about adding a calm attribute to Dispell?

Post by Aleatory » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:26 pm

Your 75% win percentage is still a little misguided. It is technically only 75% when they go first, when you go first, you could have the opportunity to play it first. And if you add in the counter strategy of [Maruading], their ability to be successful for 6 turns of dispel is lowered to 52.5%.

24-card decks really are relying on going first to win, so there's not much strategy there. A good PvP deck at level 50-59 probably has between 30-36 cards.
{edit: I ran the numbers, and even for a 30-card deck, the percentage to draw the combo on the first turn is 65% (or any other 3-card combo that has 3 of each card in the deck) - perhaps this is why it is such a good strategy and employed by so many across all classes}

I do believe that the player who goes first has an advantage - especially if they have a strategy to their deck.

I was thinking about a different possible solution: Perhaps a turn 0 where both players draw cards and place buff cards, but don't play cards or discard cards. Then turn 1 starts. I know it doesn't solve everything, but at least it would give the defender the ability to play buff combos on the first turn.

As far as challenge or arena mode, since the skills nerf to arena, I usually find you're going to play one or the other at high levels.
~Aleatory

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