Orc Shaman Expansion

Discussions about the gameplay and critique regarding the current state of the game and it's features.

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1mb4k4
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Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by 1mb4k4 » Fri May 13, 2016 4:57 pm

We proudly announce the release of the new character in the game - the Orc Shaman!

The new character Orc Shaman comes with:
- A unique set of 4 campaigns
- A unique set of cards, combos and skills
- As every other character - appearances with customization

Every other character also gets:
- 1 new campaign
- 14 new combos

Also these are the new balance changes:
Common for Human:
Cards:
Prayer:
Bonus Damage from 14 is reduced to 6
Heal from 14 is reduced to 8
Duration from 1 is increased to 2
Combos:
Royal Prayer:
Bonus Damage from 56 is reduced to 24
Heal from 56 is reduced to 32
Can last 2 instead of 1 turn

Orc Warrior
Cards:
Groin Kick:
Damages from 10 is increased to 12
Reduce Opponent’s Damages from 7 is increased to 10
EP Cost from 36 is increased to 42
Rampage:
Bonus Damages from 12 is increased to 15
EP Cost from 26 is increased to 31
Mood for War:
Damages from 5 is increased to 7
EP Cost from 26 is increased to 31
Combos:
Foul Rampage:
Bonus Damages from 10 is increased to 12
Brutal Marauding:
Bonus Damages from 9 is increased to 13
Orcish Fury:
Bonus Damages from 33 is increased to 34
Reduce Opponent’s Damages from 4 is increased to 5
Royal Rampage:
Bonus Damages from 18 is increased to 23
Compelling Mood for War:
Damages from 10 is increased to 14
Rampage of the Strongest:
Bonus Damages from 71 is increased to 77
Burning Blow:
Bonus Damages from 27 is increased to 47

Human Rogue
Combos:
Holy Trap:
Bonus Damage from 38 is reduced to 30
Heal from 14 is reduced to 8
Can last 2 instead of 1 turn

Human Knight
Cards:
Resurrection:
Heal from 33 is increased to 40
EP Cost from 72 is increased to 78
Viaticum:
Reduce Opponent’s Defense from 25 is reduced to 10
A new attribute Defense 15
Combos:
Holy Purge:
Bonus Damage from 39 is reduced to 35
Heal from 14 is reduced to 8
Can last 2 instead of 1 turn
Maker's Viaticum:
Reduce Opponent’s Defense from 25 is reduced to 10
A new attribute Defense 15
King's Resurrection:
Heal from 62 is increased to 69
Holy Viaticum:
Reduce Opponent’s Defense from 45 is reduced to 18
A new attribute Defense 27
King of the Humans:
Heal from 62 is increased to 69

Elf Keeper
Combos:
Sacrificial Soul Lifting
Bonus Damages from 10 is increased to 11

Elf Archer
Cards:
Enchanted Arrow:
Bonus Damage from 10 is reduced to 9
EP Cost from 63 is reduced to 57
Camouflage:
Reduce Opponent’s Damage from 12 is reduced to 11
EP Cost from 67 is reduced to 62
Epic Arrow:
Damage from 17 is reduced to 16
Bonus EP from 60 is reduced to 45
EP Cost from 64 is reduced to 58
Hunting Ritual:
Damage from 22 is reduced to 21
Combos:
War Arrow:
Bonus Damage from 10 is reduced to 9
Master of Camouflage:
Reduce Opponent’s Damage from 24 is reduced to 22
Shadow Disguise:
Reduce Opponent’s Damage from 12 is reduced to 11
Brutal Arrow:
Bonus Damage from 10 is reduced to 9
Bonus EP from 60 is reduced to 73
Divine Ritual:
Bonus Damage from 36 is reduced to 35
Guardian of the Elves:
Bonus Damage from 91 is reduced to 90

Motylek
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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Motylek » Sat May 14, 2016 7:59 am

Hello Andrey,

First of all, thank you very very much for putting another extra effort to game and give players more fun, more combos, more campaigns ... more everything! :-D

I will wait with more detailed comments after I will get more experience by playing with new and/or adjusted cards, but right now, I have 2 things, which I would like to say just from looking at list of changes and new cards.

1) New heroic card Shamanic Curse does not feel right to me for 2 reasons.

a) Its attribute incompetence is is very "vaguely" defined and for case of game like this, it is not good. It would fit into RPG game, with some D&D rules and randomization through usage of 20-sided dice rolls. Of course, this game claims to be inspired by RPG games, but there are various kinds of RPGs and such attribute like insomnia does not fit into precise game like Eldhelm Battlegrounds. Shamanic Curse will see no difference between heroes of one class with different EP and that is wrong. I can understand, that your definition was made in order to have similar effect on heroes of various races, but it could be done other, more proper, way. My suggestion would be to change incompetence from "change EP cost of opponents heroic and mythical cards to his hero base EP" to "change EP cost of opponents heroic and mythical cards to his hero most costly mythical card times two". It would mean for Elf Keeper 300 EP, for Human Rogue 250 EP, for Orc Warrior 144 EP etc ... In my opinion there definitely should be difference betwen at example Elf Keeper with 150 EP and Elf Keeper with 300 EP. Also I believe that extra effort of hero build should be rewarded, so if somebody did sacrifice stat points, that could have been invested in other stats and instead he put them into Energy, he should have not been penalized same way like somebody who did not care about Energy at all and invested stat points into other stats.
When it comes to "affect attribute that is made by stat points", it must be precisely defined, because there is exact finite number of stat points that hero has available. By making card that works with whole hero EP base, it would be at example like making card, which takes half (or quarter, or any fraction of whole) of hero starting HP.
There are games where things like that would fit, but this is not case of Eldhelm Battlegrounds, because it is very inconsistent with current game design.

b) Shamanic Curse is now the only one heroic card, that does not have Calmness attribute, which is making it very unique in yet another way and in same time, its potential impact is theoretically very big. I am afraid if it will not turn into another "Honor Guidance issue". In other words, one single card, that is so powerful that it significantly disbalance match to the point, where all previous actions did not matter in comparison with what happens after 10 turns duration Shamanic Curse comes into effect. I am afraid that game will revolve into "who will play Shamanic Curse sooner, he will win".

2) I was hoping that with balance changes, there would come also some boost for Elf Keeper, who is currently by my opinion the weakest hero build in the game. If you look at all Mythical cards available in the game, there are only 3 of 19 (including Mythical buff cards), that have only 1 attribute and namely those are Unicorn Spirit, Resurrection and Haunting Voices. Haunting Voices have their special role and purpose and they are as well available for all hero builds, so there is no disadvantage for any race/class as all builds get same effect from it. Human Knight Resurrection was adjusted to get better with new expansion balance changes. But Unicorn Spirit remained same like before and if you compare it especially with another 3 turns duration Mythical card Thunderstorm (Orc Shaman Mythical card), you see how Unicorn Spirit lacks in power, especially if it is card of the weakest hero build in the game, the Elf Keeper.

So this is what I basically want to say to game expansion and balances right now and I will provide more feedback later, with more playing experience.

Thank you once more for improving and expanding game all the time! :-)
Motylek

Essence Team
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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Essence Team » Sat May 14, 2016 9:20 am

Hello Motylek,
Thanks for the great feedback and of course thanks for playing :P

Regarding the Shamanic Curse and the character Orc Shaman as a whole we have many concerns about its balance. We expect several balance and bug issues and of course we'll observe its performance and take measures accordingly. The idea of the Shamani Curse is to deny the use of the most powerful cards and combos (the use of EP is just the way we decided to make it happen it can change). The reason is to make the game a bit more unpredictable and variable. Currently everybody is collecting just the best cards and aims at using the best combos. We want to make the players use the lower combos and cards with the same fluently. Maybe we have chosen a wrong or not optimized method, but just the tests with a lot of players can give us the picture. So currently both the Orc Shaman and the card Shamanic Curse are under heavy balance observation.

Regarding the Elf Keeper, and all the rest of the characters' balance, we'll dug deep into the statistic and make some simulations. We'll try to tune the balance accordingly!

Cheers!

Motylek
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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Motylek » Sat May 14, 2016 11:01 pm

Hello, I have another feedback, this time regarding Elite card "Mental Harassment" and its ability "Negligence".

In my opinion, this ability does not fit into Eldhelm world at all for several reasons.

1) It is wrong mechanic, that does not belong to games at all in general.
-> What is purpose of games in general? Games should entertain players and help them relax, so they can experience some change from daily routine and be refreshed for further work or any duty they have responsibility for.
-> And how is this achieved? By letting players play the game.
-> And how are players playing game? Players play game by collecting and then using their resources. In this game, resources are among other things represented also by deck, which players construct and bring with them to duel.
-> If there is any mechanic, that is preventing players from using their resources by removing them from game before they could be used, it is harming both way and in extension also purpose of the game. As example it could be compared to original function of Honor Guidance, which was also preventing players to use their own resources. It was not expanding game experience, it was limiting game experience and enjoyment.

2) It does not fit into Battlegrounds of Eldhelm specifically.
-> Eldhelm has its unique characteristic, which is unlike any other card game, that I know.
-> However targeted discard, which is focusing on opponents best cards does not look like being natural part of unique Eldhelm characteristic or at least it definitely was not so far. To me it feels like if mechanic comes from some other game, namely Magic the Gathering. I can not really find any other Eldhelm mechanic reminding me something from MtG, but targeted discard, that is black color mechanic from MtG.

3) It does not make sense logically.
-> Naturally, what person values highest, he cares about more than about anything else.
-> It is much much more easier to "steal, destroy, tamper with, ... or discard" something, that has not so high value to its owner than if it is otherwise.
-> For the most valuable things, person will fight like for nothing else. So it is unimaginable that the most valuable card could be discarded from players hand "effortlessly, just like that" and even worse, repeatedly! (because Mental Harassment has 3 turns duration) Like if somebody who would lose the most valuable thing, would not care and would not make any effort to not let that happen continuously. It makes no sense at all.

4) It is potentially highly imbalanced.
-> This mechanic is focusing on the best cards on players hand. Majority of cards in collector deck are in several copies, so their discard can affect game, but not to the point that it would decide about result of duel.
-> But some of the very unique cards are available only in one single piece and are irreplaceable. Their "loss or unability to play" has significant impact on duel result. If one of dueling players would be very lucky and other one very unlucky, it would be like if that lucky player would be allowed to have heroic cards in his deck while unlucky player would be denied to put any heroic card into his collector deck. You could imagine how would such hypothetical duel end.

These 4 reasons above are representing my personal opinion and I understand, that others could see things differently. I would like to hear reasons, arguments, why this mechanic was introduced into game. Generally it is your right to shape your game however you want, how you feel it is right, but for me personally, mechanic like "repeated targeted discard" (discard focused on the best card) is philosophically insurmountable obstacle in playing game and if it will stay in game after balancing period, I will not want to continue playing Battlegrounds of Eldhelm further. Please do not take it as any forceful ultimatum or something of this kind. It is mere statement, that I just do not want to play game, that is not letting me enjoy game experience fully and instead represents mechanics, that I fundamentally disagree with.

I am looking forward to read your answer
Motylek

Skill Hunter
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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Skill Hunter » Mon May 16, 2016 5:42 pm

Hello
Well first of things i must congratulate you on the new character ☺️ While i think it might been to stronge
I mean it's basically a Caster with high might and new tactics which can take away all the cards you got in hands so you guys almost made him invincible
Second you weakened the Human rogue while it is weak enough with the decrease of the loyal prayer combo
But thats not all what most importantly is this combo of the orc warrior i mean wth is that no one can survive 5 turns now am talking about the Cursed Strike ?????
43 attack ok 126 bonus attack ????????????
88 defense decrease????????? 183 healing decrease?????????
So basically its 169 hit and nothing can stop it !!!!!
What was that made for !! Are you guys serious??
You can play it from the first turn by the third turn the game is over and you can do a thing am so frustrated with this game i just got my butt kicked against someone with 10 cards deck and app what i was able to do is watching him attack over and over for 5 turns maximum you only need two buff and one play card ?!?!?!?!?? You guys should really consider adding such a combo its like the orc mythical card is not bad enough that there is no way to stop it and now you made a devastating combo with it ??? And you call that a balance changes !?!?!

Skill Hunter
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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Skill Hunter » Mon May 16, 2016 8:58 pm

I just fought an elf archer and what a surprise
Cursed Ritual !!!!
Over 180ep gone ?? And it last for 2 turns :o
At least with the orc warrior i played few cards against the elf archer i just watched the game :x
???
You really need to change these combo its really ridiculous you just made the game worst it's basically not balanced and winning is after 3 to 4 turns and all have the same deck all with that combo and the one who start first win ?? Is that the kind of game you want ?

Motylek
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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Motylek » Tue May 17, 2016 2:53 am

Hello,

I perfectly agree with Skill Hunter. After new cards expansion, game is in bigger disbalance than I have ever experienced before. Like if there was no testing of some cards at all. And what is worse, I could see it without playing single game with those new cards, so it means, it is not so unobvious. I already mentioned it in my first post in this thread. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6191#p7961
Motylek wrote: b) Shamanic Curse is now the only one heroic card, that does not have Calmness attribute, which is making it very unique in yet another way and in same time, its potential impact is theoretically very big. I am afraid if it will not turn into another "Honor Guidance issue". In other words, one single card, that is so powerful that it significantly disbalance match to the point, where all previous actions did not matter in comparison with what happens after 10 turns duration Shamanic Curse comes into effect. I am afraid that game will revolve into "who will play Shamanic Curse sooner, he will win".
As I see it, game is in such disbalance, that it is killing entertainment. My personal opinion is that game would be much better without both Shamanic Curse and Mental Harassment. With those cards present in the game, only single player duels versus AI are giving some entertainment, but player versus player is broken and unplayable.

Best regards
Motylek

Motylek
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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Motylek » Tue May 17, 2016 11:49 am

I have an idea. What about giving Shamanic Curse calmness attribute 30? It would serve as prevention against too long boring duels. Especially Keeper versus Keeper lasts easily over 1 hour. I also can not forget my 100+ turns long duel with Herkulator (Defense to the max) Human Knight, which was really exhausting. I do not remember how long it lasted, but I can safely assume it was close to 2 hours. So Shamanic curse could serve as assurance to not have any duel lasting unnecessarily long. But even with calmness 30, combos derived from Shamanic Curse would need some downgrading more than a bit.

What to do about Mental Harassment, I do not know, but I would suggest to get rid of Negligance totally and replace it with practically anything. Unlike Shamanic Curse, which will make duel end very quickly, Mental Harassment is assuring game will take much much longer as it will remove the most powerful cards from opponents hand, so he will have trouble to kill Shaman. But in same time, Shaman is Caster class and in general not so much attack oriented like Orc Warrior or Elf Archer, so negligance is theoreticaly helping to have 1+ hour long lasting duels and that is really unwanted thing. I described more important reasons why Negligance is bad in my previous feedback ... viewtopic.php?f=5&p=7984&sid=2bf40ad28a ... 425e#p7969

Best regards
Motylek

kylll
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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by kylll » Tue May 17, 2016 7:17 pm

Invited to express what should be new heroic combo.
Last edited by kylll on Fri May 20, 2016 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Motylek
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Re: Orc Shaman Expansion

Post by Motylek » Wed May 18, 2016 5:57 am

Hello,

Up to now, I thought, that only player versus player is destroyed due to Shamanic Curse, because all you see now are 10 cards decks, that are winning within 4 turns. But to my surprise, Shamanic Curse destroyed player versus AI too. I was playing Daily Quest with my Human Knight Erik level 54 and AI came up with Shamanic Curse combo for Archer. This is really cherry on top of play experience destruction, that you made with expansion. THERE IS NO WAY HOW CHARACTER ON LEVEL 54 COULD GET SHAMANIC CURSE BY NORMAL PLAY! Any hero, that is able to finish last 4th campaign has to be stronger than mere level 54, but even if hero would be able to finish it on level 54, all experience gained by finishing campaign would give him so much experience, that he would be safely 90+ level. No AI hero in Daily Quest below level 90 should posses Shamanic Curse and also Shamanic Curse should not be able to draw in Arena mode for levels 1-49.

Gameplay experience of this, once fantastic masterpiece, is shattered to the ground. Did you do at least some basic playtesting? :-(

Motylek

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